Poor Man's Nutrients Control - Donovan's Nitrate Destroyer

[Homer Allman]

If a picture is worth a 1000 words, what's two worth? HAHA Today i'm starting to get a build up of junk at the end of the water valve where the water comes out. Just like I read I would. It seems this has restricted the flow some. I will have to measure to confirm. However with this drip the test results below speak for themselves. killed, destroyed........gone. OMG WOW.

 

[Homer Allman]

What I used for my twin tower was large bio rings around 15 pounds and around 3/4 of a cubic foot of marine pure 2" blocks broken in half. I started with the prodibio bacteria and am injecting, actually haha, with a syringe and all.... 1o ml of straight 80 proof vodka twice a day.

 

[Homer Allman]

I should add, in the above pictures, the red is the display and yellow is the reactor.

 

[Donovan Joannes]

Get a prefilter device for your water inlet @Homer Allman. I wish I can get it locally, but so far no restriction except on the outlet when in turbo mode. You need to workout your flow a bit, find the best flow with 10 - 15ppm lower NO3 compared to display. In this way, your nitrate will go down faster, once your display no3 is lower than 20ppm, you can decide where you want to keep your nitrate level. Between 3 to 5 is just nice, but 5 - 10 for a softies/lps dominated tank is perfect.

 

[Homer Allman]

I get what you are saying. I did increase the flow some and will retest tomorrow. My target range is 20 ppm in the display once it all stabilizes in a few months.

 

[Donovan Joannes]

I get what you are saying. I did increase the flow some and will retest tomorrow. My target range is 20 ppm in the display once it all stabilizes in a few months.

What is your flow now?. If it is 5 - 10% of total volume, leave it as it is. That beast is really hungry

 

[Reef Monkie]

Hi there. Thanks for your compliment. I have a few builder whom are using ORP sensor at the second chamber to trigger the dosing when it reached certain voltage. They are on the other forum, so I cannot refer you to them. If you are familiar with dymico filtration system, the same concepts applied. You have to build a trend based on ORP curves to determine the exact time of carbon delivery. I am not an expert on ORP, hopefully someone will chime in.

I think I found your comment about orp when reading up on the dymico system which was what made me curious. I wonder if it would be possible, if it is not to much effort for you personally of course, that you would be allowed to share any information here that those people on the other forum had on what ORP range they targeted and/or any other tips on implementing it, with their permission of course. Since quite a few people seem to have controllers and ORP probes are not that expensive perhaps I am not the only one interested in a data-driven approach to bacterial nutrient control.

I had found some information on another forum where they discuss building a DIY version of the whole dymico system but that is processing the tank water in batches instead of a continuous process that your nitrate destroyer uses so I am not sure how relevant all of that is. I also hope you don't feel this is taking your thread off topic.

The ORP range that an actual DyMiCo filter operates in is from -250mv to +250mv according to their manual. I seem to recall reading somewhere that the filter typically stays between 0mv and -200mv.

That discussion got quite complex (for me) but one other thing I gathered was that targeting a absolute value for ORP was a bad idea because ORP readings can change over time for a lot of reasons so they suggested targeting a rapid change in ORP instead.

 

[Donovan Joannes]

@Reef Monkie, a very good read to give you some idea...

http://www.masa.asn.au/masawiki/index.php/Sulphur_Denitrator

If i remember correctly, they are targeting minus 100mv as set point where carbon is added. The amount of carbon dosage is determined from the ORP trending chart.

May I know the reason for ORP interests?. A single dosage works for some, many prefers twice or thrice dosage daily. A few hook up a dosing pump with better results due to heavy feeding and very minimal rockscape. I dose twice daily since adding chromis, used to be a single dosage before.

 

[Reef Monkie]

@Reef Monkie, a very good read to give you some idea...

http://www.masa.asn.au/masawiki/index.php/Sulphur_Denitrator

If i remember correctly, they are targeting minus 100mv as set point where carbon is added. The amount of carbon dosage is determined from the ORP trending chart.

May I know the reason for ORP interests?. A single dosage works for some, many prefers twice or thrice dosage daily. A few hook up a dosing pump with better results due to heavy feeding and very minimal rockscape. I dose twice daily since adding chromis, used to be a single dosage before.

Thanks for the link!

And why the interest in ORP? It could be just madness.
I am doing a lot of reading/research before setting up my tank and because salt water is new to me I am not so tied to traditional methods and have been reading up a lot on different approaches to nutrient control. What I like so much about your method and also the dymico system or algae based systems is the potential for a more 'natural' system that allows for all kinds of life in the tank that is also able to deal with a changing nutrient load. It is seems obvious by now that carbon can be a limiting factor and that a system like yours works well as it is but what I find missing from much of the hobby (fish keeping in general) is that a lot of the solutions are anecdotal despite all tanks having different biological loads and therefore different needs. That is why ideas like monitoring ORP to dose carbon seems so interesting to me because it would take the mystery out of carbon dosing and potentially prevent any of the issues that some people have with it (IE blooms) without having to resort to test strips. That would then make carbon dosing and a bacterial driven system even more transparent to the user as say something like a skimmer.

That said I when I start I will probably dose by hand unless I make enough progress that I also have a controller when I start up. My current thinking is to have a more minimalistic rockscape and I do hope to feed heavily at some point, one of the fish I really like are the dragonettes and it seems they are quite dependent on live food. Part of the attraction to a reef tank is that it seems possible to have a more complete food web when compared to the fresh water world I am more at home in.

 

[Donovan Joannes]

Gotcha. Consistently monitor ORP is the best way (and complicated too) to maximise the denitrator effectiveness. For manual dosing, finding the balance of carbon quantity and flow is quite simple. Unless your flow is very high, the carbon should be fully consumed internally thus no blooming. A simple no3 test (display and effluent) is good enough to give you the idea of flow/carbon ratio, and surprisingly it never failed to impress me. The only thing I really wanted to know is what are the bacteria that came out from the reactor that corals loves so much. Night time PE is super crazy, especially when there is major blooming happening (significant drop on effluent flow).

Speaking of dragonets, the trick is to pile up small rocks as safe haven for pods to multiply. They fed on planktons, in my case left over foods and detritus are abundant. I have a fat mandy in my 75G and at night there are hundreds of pods all over the place.

 

[Reef Monkie]

Gotcha. Consistently monitor ORP is the best way (and complicated too) to maximise the denitrator effectiveness. For manual dosing, finding the balance of carbon quantity and flow is quite simple. Unless your flow is very high, the carbon should be fully consumed internally thus no blooming. A simple no3 test (display and effluent) is good enough to give you the idea of flow/carbon ratio, and surprisingly it never failed to impress me. The only thing I really wanted to know is what are the bacteria that came out from the reactor that corals loves so much. Night time PE is super crazy, especially when there is major blooming happening (significant drop on effluent flow).

Speaking of dragonets, the trick is to pile up small rocks as safe haven for pods to multiply. They fed on planktons, in my case left over foods and detritus are abundant. I have a fat mandy in my 75G and at night there are hundreds of pods all over the place.

Thanks for the info on dragonets, I am lucky to have enough space under my stand for a refugium as well as a sump so I hope that will help too. It is funny you mention coral feeding on bacteria, the guy that helped develop the home version of the dymico system from their version for public aquariums is a marine biologist who has researched as well as written quite a lot of articles about coral feeding, some of which can be found on the Advanced Aquarist website. His name is Tim Wijgerde. According to him some corals that feed on smaller particles can get quite a lot of their nitrogen requirement from feeding on nitrogen fixing bacteria so perhaps this is what you are seeing.

This is one article that talks about bacteria as a food source (as well as other food sources).

 

[Donovan Joannes]

Thanks @Reef Monkie. Yup, my reactor produces a lot of bacteria that makes my tank water looks fuzzy every morning. Now my light starts early (5am) so I can't see it anymore. Maybe I will try a shorter light schedule to find out

 

[Reef Monkie]

Thanks @Reef Monkie. Yup, my reactor produces a lot of bacteria that makes my tank water looks fuzzy every morning. Now my light starts early (5am) so I can't see it anymore. Maybe I will try a shorter light schedule to find out

Its funny but every time I look into filtration techniques for reef tanks I end up reading about industrial and municipal waste water treatment methods, it seems most of the techniques used in our fish tanks have been borrowed from those sources and those techniques are often decades old. During this reading I came across a possible solution for managing that cloud in the tank other than via a filter sock, which can't be regulated. Since I am not that far along that I have actually built anything I thought I would share the idea. As a bonus it is completely passive and should be relatively easy to build. In waste water treatment they use something called a Lamella Clarifier or Inclined Plate Separator to separate the sludge (bacteria and its waste) from the clean water.

The shape looks complex to construct but would be quite simple to make if one started out with a small acrylic box, then one could simply glue the inclined plates inside that box. If the inlet that comes from your nitrate destroyer is placed on the side of the box and the clean water outlet is at the same height then it is completely passive. If the sides of the box are higher than the water level in the nitrate destroyer then it doesn't need a sealed lid on top. A outlet on the bottom with a ball valve would allow collection of the sludge. Alternatively one could T off the sludge outlet and use ball valves to allow some of the sludge/bacteria to drip back into the return section of the sump to feed the tank and collect the rest in a cup making it more like a skimmer in that one would export more than 'just' the N gas your nitrate destroyer currently exports from the system.

I don't know if this is a stupid idea or not but I thought I would share it.

 

[Khaotic]

Well today I built my destroyer I used about 1 and a half gallons of marine pure style bio balls. I'll be seeding with biodigest. It will be supplied from my return pumps manifold and then drain back into the sump(pic 5) it will be placed above the frag tank (pic 4) with the short end sticking out over the sump. Hoping it works good with this media and the added length.

 

[Donovan Joannes]

Well today I built my destroyer I used about 1 and a half gallons of marine pure style bio balls. I'll be seeding with biodigest. It will be supplied from my return pumps manifold and then drain back into the sump(pic 5) it will be placed above the frag tank (pic 4) with the short end sticking out over the sump. Hoping it works good with this media and the added length.

This reactor is one of a kind. Can't wait to hear some result from you. Might as well call it nitrate drainage system

 

[Khaotic]

This reactor is one of a kind. Can't wait to hear some result from you. Might as well call it nitrate drainage system

I'll be starting it up when I get off work tonight, hopefully all goes well. Had to build one to fit my stand cause I couldn't find a spot to put towers that wasn't in the way.

So glad you shared this with us, I thought about making a bacteria filter before but wasn't thinking about flow rate and I'm sure I'd have had too much if I hadn't seen this thread.

 

[Donovan Joannes]

I'll be starting it up when I get off work tonight, hopefully all goes well. Had to build one to fit my stand cause I couldn't find a spot to put towers that wasn't in the way.

So glad you shared this with us, I thought about making a bacteria filter before but wasn't thinking about flow rate and I'm sure I'd have had too much if I hadn't seen this thread.

No problem at all. I am glad that you take the extra effort to build it and give some idea to others having the same setup like yours.

 

[WesleyC]

Hi Donovan, what a great design you have! I'm going to try it out. You've mentioned that I would need up to 1/10 of my total water volume per day through the unit. I have 120g water, so that just about 0.5 gallon per hour. Do you think gravity feed is enough or I should go for a closed design and have pump pushing water in?

 

[Donovan Joannes]

Hi Donovan, what a great design you have! I'm going to try it out. You've mentioned that I would need up to 1/10 of my total water volume per day through the unit. I have 120g water, so that just about 0.5 gallon per hour. Do you think gravity feed is enough or I should go for a closed design and have pump pushing water in?

Hi there. It should be more than enough. I tapped mine directly from my overflow pipe and has been running flawlessly for many moons ago. I am now on 100% turn over daily to keep my nitrate at less than 5ppm.

Ignore that strainers, I was about to make some Borneo's local black coffee when replying your post

 

[McMullen]

This is an awesome thread!