Possible palytoxin release cause crashed tank

[taytay_1119]

Events leading up to believing our paly frag released the toxin and is causing all corals to close up and sps rtn:
•Friday added 3 chromis and removed two clowns out of the 60g. In the process bumped the palys not sure how many time or how hard as it was the bf who did it. Also note we did aiptasia x the same night
•Saturday didn’t really notice much that I can recall… maybe some closed up but can’t think of anything really. Was going to do water change bc nitrates were high at 40-50. Dryer sheets fell into the water barrel for .5-1sec quickly removed and dumped all that water out. Remade fresh.
•Sunday mornin everything was P.O. and closed. Got 30g made and did 50% water change bc we believed it to be palys and added a carbon filter.
•did another 50% change Tuesday.

•also note I’ve been sick since Saturday with all the symptoms as well.

Pics of what tank looked like before:

What it looks like now:

Is this really what caused it? Palys are just to the right of red goni. Our parameters were what to be suspected for us and within .05-.1 of our normals….
Should we remove all coral, dip and set up separate tank?
Keep doing water changes?
Keep running carbon?


This will be the second crash we’ve had since starting this hobby last year (last one was due to ato failure during vacation)

 

[Fish Fan]

Sorry to hear bout this!

If you think you personally may have been exposed to the palytoxin yourself, I'd definitely be contacting your doctor.

I'm tagging along to hear what other's think. There was a new reefer posting just yesterday terrified that her paly's were going to take out her whole tank.

 

[F i s h y]

Opinions will be mixed.
First off, as mentioned always seek medical attention if you are unsure to be safe.

Now, simply bumping plays is unlikely (not saying impossible) to release any toxins.
I think palytoxin is overhyped. Been doing this a long time. 3 nights ago I forcibly removed nearly 200 of the dark green palys in my tank with tweezers. No issues to fish or anything else.

Based on your pictures (and I could be wrong) your tank still seems relatively new. Large water changes to affect things like nitrates and phosphates are temporary fixes at best and will stress all of your coral because the replacement water is not typically the same alkalinity or ph.

In order to fix nitrates and phosphates you need to figure out what caused the spikes or high values and mitigate that issue. Heavy feeding of pellet or flake food, not rinsing frozen food, po4 leaching from rocks are all examples.

Honest opinion is that it's coincidence.

 

[taytay_1119]

Based on your pictures (and I could be wrong) your tank still seems relatively new. Large water changes to affect things like nitrates and phosphates are temporary fixes at best and will stress all of your coral because the replacement water is not typically the same alkalinity or ph.

In order to fix nitrates and phosphates you need to figure out what caused the spikes or high values and mitigate that issue. Heavy feeding of pellet or flake food, not rinsing frozen food, po4 leaching from rocks are all examples.

Honest opinion is that it's coincidence.

the tank itself is new the inhabitants and rock are all from previous tank. Upgraded bout a month ago. We Do heavy feed bc of the tangs. Skimmer is still breaking in. But even before the water change the corals were closed. We didn’t test before the change bc we were planning a 15% change anyways. But tested after the change and the alk and ph were pretty consistent with what we were running.

 

[Ironwill723]

Opinions will be mixed.

In order to fix nitrates and phosphates you need to figure out what caused the spikes or high values and mitigate that issue. Heavy feeding of pellet or flake food, not rinsing frozen food, po4 leaching from rocks are all examples.

Honest opinion is that it's coincidence.

^^^^this

 

[Jason boles]

Wouldn’t call it a crash. Maybe a fender bender

I am of the opinion it is unlikely palytoxin. I have scraped them off racks in my tank with no ill effects.

I’ve been at it a little while and have learned that many times whatever the “root cause” was it was long gone or past by the time the corals reacted sufficiently for me to notice.

It has taken weeks sometimes.

My advice would be to only feed your fish and not the coral. Dosing doesn’t count but don’t attempt to spot feed all corals. It makes water nasty. If u wanna feed corals look into the KZ line

I would very slowly add just enough food for the fish to eat most days. I broadcast feed my tank now only once a month max. My rocks finally look clean and amazing.

I came from freshwater where it was totally cool to do a 100 percent water change to reset the water just fine with no ill effects.

In reef tanks the changes occur over time generally in one direction, and bringing it back too swiftly can cause or compound issues.

I generally don’t replace more than 10 percent at a time to mitigate the small differences between the big three.

Check your salinity, ensure your lights are not off schedule, and your temp is remaining steady. One of the biggest solvable issues is salinity swings from not having a regular ATO machine.

If you keep at all these things, it will steer itself back. You may have a loss here or there.

I follow these rules to keep my reef tip top. I also do maintenance, but IMO my success started when I stopped trying to figure things out.

Don’t tell anyone, but I have never even tested the parameters of my water past temp, and salinity. I also don’t keep a ton of SPS and have a soft dominate tank.

Chasing parameters was my jam for the first few years. It worked for me, but in the end I am apathetic and this method works best for me!

Just keep at it and it will sort itself out. Part of the fun for me.

I recently nuked my tank for weeks with lights full blast after accidentally changing the setting one late evening. They were supplemental 360x that were on about 30 percent at max. Lost many high end pieces worth 1000s. Was very discouraging. 6 months later everything I do have is bouncing back amazing and growing. I have replaced many of the pieces and moved on from the rest.

My 2 cents. Good luck.

I get blisters sometimes from my hammer and bta’s. Gen like a really light jelly fish sting. My carpet got me on my forearm once and it was really stingy. My exp with getting stung in the tank. Some are more sensitive.

 

[Mr. Mojo Rising]

sorry that happened, and please take care of your health first.

I don't want to be the guy that says that what your saying is not true, but for me its a stretch and I think there is some fear mongering about pallytoxins on forums that might contribute to bias-ness.

Anyone in the hobby long enough has somehow abused some pally's with no bad after effects.

 

[John Neuzil]

Never heard nor read about palys releasing toxins into the tank like that. Id look elsewhere for the answer to the issue.

 

[backbayreef]

I think that the palys are innocent bystanders here. I suspect that it might be the Aiptasia-X overdose that skyrocketed alk. SPS corals don’t do well with alk swings.

 

[taytay_1119]

I think that the palys are innocent bystanders here. I suspect that it might be the Aiptasia-X overdose that skyrocketed alk. SPS corals don’t do well with alk swings.

Dang, you think it coulda been that? We didn’t use much. Maybe 3 mil in a 60g tank. I don’t think he missed the aiptasias that much and the pumps were off when we did it

 

[Uncle99]

What are your systems good parameters and how old is that system?

Are you sure they are all on point?
Did you check each?

Tank looks very nice BTW.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

I’ve been at it a little while and have learned that many times whatever the “root cause” was it was long gone or past by the time the corals reacted sufficiently for me to notice.

It has taken weeks sometimes.

This is so often overlooked!

 

[moretor1]

Isn't aiptasia x just kalkwasser paste? Also 50ppm nitrate sounds very high for a tank with sps

Probably a combination of an alk swing and nitrates. It honestly looks like the sps was starting to lose its tips in the before photo

 

[taytay_1119]

What are your systems good parameters and how old is that system?

Are you sure they are all on point?
Did you check each?

Tank looks very nice BTW.

Temp- 77.7
Salinity- 1.026 fritz rpm salt
Alk- 8 (what it’s been since day one) (Red Sea)
Ph-8.2 (Red Sea)
Ammonia- .25-.3 (did have 2 snails die and another possible dead one) api
Nitrite-0 api and Red Sea
Calc- 400 api
Phos we can never get it to register been like that since day one. Salfert
Nitrate- 5 Red Sea
Light schedule on 9:00 off at 10:00. Blue is 100% white is 5% at max. Max for 2-3 hours.
Hob filter
Skimmer
Co2 scrubber
Two wave makers
Tank was set up a month ago with all stock except sand from our 10 and 20 gallons. Combined both of em into the 60. 20g rock is 18month old 10 gallon rock is 4-5 months old.

 

[BeanAnimal]

.
I think palytoxin is overhyped. Been doing this a long time. 3 nights ago I forcibly removed nearly 200 of the dark green palys in my tank with tweezers. No issues to fish or anything else.

It is extremely “under hyped” by folks who have a false sense of security because their species has none or very little.

It is quite literally one of the most lethal neurotoxins on the planet. Full Stop.

no big deal until you get into the wrong species.

 

[Uncle99]

Temp- 77.7
Salinity- 1.026 fritz rpm salt
Alk- 8 (what it’s been since day one) (Red Sea)
Ph-8.2 (Red Sea)
Ammonia- .25-.3 (did have 2 snails die and another possible dead one) api
Nitrite-0 api and Red Sea
Calc- 400 api
Phos we can never get it to register been like that since day one. Salfert
Nitrate- 5 Red Sea
Light schedule on 9:00 off at 10:00. Blue is 100% white is 5% at max. Max for 2-3 hours.
Hob filter
Skimmer
Co2 scrubber
Two wave makers
Tank was set up a month ago with all stock except sand from our 10 and 20 gallons. Combined both of em into the 60. 20g rock is 18month old 10 gallon rock is 4-5 months old.

Phosphate is one of the most important parameters.
For me, only Hanna ULR gave me consistent readings.

Both zero and high phosphate reading may trigger pest type algae’s and bacteria, you do need to read and manage that, it feeds both corals indirectly, and feeds your systems processors, the good stuff.

The tank is still new at 2 months.

 

[Sleeping Giant]

what's your salinity number?

 

[Maho.B]

There are a lot of good points made in this thread, so I will just comment on it potentially being from bumping the paly's. Of course I can't be certain in your case, but I recently removed a TON of Pandora palys and it was far more aggressive than bumping them (like ripping and tearing) and there was absolutely no ill effects on the other corals both sps and lps. Likely some other cause like Alk swing or something