Possible UNWD in yellow wrasse?

[drolmaeye]

Short version: can someone with relevant wrasse and/or fish disease experience give an opinion on possible UNWD based on video and (long) description below?

Purchased yellow wrasse (h. chrysus, ~1.5-2") 11 days ago (8/17/2023) on the day my LFS received it. Fish appearance/swimming looked normal during acclimation, added to 16g QT tank (together with firefish that had been in a week). Wrasse hid in sand, emerged 5 days later, initially swimming/eating/behaving normally (sleeping in sand, in the water column during the day). PraziPro added the evening it emerged. The next morning the wrasse appeared moribund (laying on side, breathing heavily). I changed ~20% of the water and immediately added chelated copper (to save firefish from possible protozoan like velvet, assumed the wrasse would be dead in a matter of hours). Left for work and returned to find the wrasse looking surprisingly good, and it continually improved.

Shortly after (maybe day 8?) I noticed strange swimming behavior. Wrasse was vertical whenever stationary, only horizontal during active swimming. It also had a strange kink in its back much of the time. It continues to eat. Appears to have a small spot consistent with lymphocystis? on tail fin (but no other visible issues). Based on the video below, is it possible my little yellow wrasse is suffering from UNWD?

Tank: 16g bare-bottom, no rock QT with small dish of sand
Tankmate: Helfrichi firefish (seem to get along just fine)
Temp: 79.5-80 F
Salinity: 1.022
Ammonia, Nitrate: undetectable
Phosphate: 0.23 ppm
Copper: 2.31 ppm
pH, Nitrite, calcium, magnesium, alk: untested

 

[vetteguy53081]

Short version: can someone with relevant wrasse and/or fish disease experience give an opinion on possible UNWD based on video and (long) description below?

Purchased yellow wrasse (h. chrysus, ~1.5-2") 11 days ago (8/17/2023) on the day my LFS received it. Fish appearance/swimming looked normal during acclimation, added to 16g QT tank (together with firefish that had been in a week). Wrasse hid in sand, emerged 5 days later, initially swimming/eating/behaving normally (sleeping in sand, in the water column during the day). PraziPro added the evening it emerged. The next morning the wrasse appeared moribund (laying on side, breathing heavily). I changed ~20% of the water and immediately added chelated copper (to save firefish from possible protozoan like velvet, assumed the wrasse would be dead in a matter of hours). Left for work and returned to find the wrasse looking surprisingly good, and it continually improved.

Shortly after (maybe day 8?) I noticed strange swimming behavior. Wrasse was vertical whenever stationary, only horizontal during active swimming. It also had a strange kink in its back much of the time. It continues to eat. Appears to have a small spot consistent with lymphocystis? on tail fin (but no other visible issues). Based on the video below, is it possible my little yellow wrasse is suffering from UNWD?

Tank: 16g bare-bottom, no rock QT with small dish of sand
Tankmate: Helfrichi firefish (seem to get along just fine)
Temp: 79.5-80 F
Salinity: 1.022
Ammonia, Nitrate: undetectable
Phosphate: 0.23 ppm
Copper: 2.31 ppm
pH, Nitrite, calcium, magnesium, alk: untested

while UNWD seems like a possibility, Why ewas PraziPro initiated? In addition, you wanted to utilize Prazi pro for 8 days consecutive, but you did a water change and reduced. If I understand correctly, you then added coppersafe or copper power. At what therapeutic level did you add the copper?
Wrasses are tolerant of chelated copper as long as not high level or overdosed.
Can you provide a video of at least 20 seconds under white lighting to observe the behavior youre describing ?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Short version: can someone with relevant wrasse and/or fish disease experience give an opinion on possible UNWD based on video and (long) description below?

Purchased yellow wrasse (h. chrysus, ~1.5-2") 11 days ago (8/17/2023) on the day my LFS received it. Fish appearance/swimming looked normal during acclimation, added to 16g QT tank (together with firefish that had been in a week). Wrasse hid in sand, emerged 5 days later, initially swimming/eating/behaving normally (sleeping in sand, in the water column during the day). PraziPro added the evening it emerged. The next morning the wrasse appeared moribund (laying on side, breathing heavily). I changed ~20% of the water and immediately added chelated copper (to save firefish from possible protozoan like velvet, assumed the wrasse would be dead in a matter of hours). Left for work and returned to find the wrasse looking surprisingly good, and it continually improved.

Shortly after (maybe day 8?) I noticed strange swimming behavior. Wrasse was vertical whenever stationary, only horizontal during active swimming. It also had a strange kink in its back much of the time. It continues to eat. Appears to have a small spot consistent with lymphocystis? on tail fin (but no other visible issues). Based on the video below, is it possible my little yellow wrasse is suffering from UNWD?

Tank: 16g bare-bottom, no rock QT with small dish of sand
Tankmate: Helfrichi firefish (seem to get along just fine)
Temp: 79.5-80 F
Salinity: 1.022
Ammonia, Nitrate: undetectable
Phosphate: 0.23 ppm
Copper: 2.31 ppm
pH, Nitrite, calcium, magnesium, alk: untested

That certainly looks like it, but the timing of the prazi treatment is suspicious. I keep getting vague reports of wrasse reacting to prazi. Trouble is, I’ve dosed hundreds of wrasse over the years and have an issue with them. Lack of good aeration during the prazi treatment may be an issue, but I’m not 100% on that yet.

Jay

 

[drolmaeye]

Thank you, both, for replying . . .

while UNWD seems like a possibility, Why ewas PraziPro initiated? In addition, you wanted to utilize Prazi pro for 8 days consecutive, but you did a water change and reduced. If I understand correctly, you then added coppersafe or copper power. At what therapeutic level did you add the copper?
Wrasses are tolerant of chelated copper as long as not high level or overdosed.
Can you provide a video of at least 20 seconds under white lighting to observe the behavior youre describing ?

I added Prazi as a second, prophylactic dose for the firefish (8 days after the first dose it received). I did a 20% water change the next day only in case the Prazi was the cause of the wrasse's difficulty (however unlikely) and added copper only to try to protect the firefish from possible disease brought in by the wrasse. Copper has measured between 2.31 and 2.51 ppm since adding it 5 days ago. I don't imagine the copper is causing the wrasse problems.

Was the video in my post not sufficient? I can try to get a better one (but the wrasse is a bit camera shy).

That certainly looks like it, but the timing of the prazi treatment is suspicious. I keep getting vague reports of wrasse reacting to prazi. Trouble is, I’ve dosed hundreds of wrasse over the years and have an issue with them. Lack of good aeration during the prazi treatment may be an issue, but I’m not 100% on that yet.

Jay

I have an air stone that causes quite a bit of surface agitation in addition to the surface agitation from the HOB filter. I worried about low oxygen, but was not sure as I have not had a problem with Prazi before (although I have only quarantined half a dozen fish since returning to hobby).

I will keep a close eye on things over the next week and follow up, especially if swimming behavior noticeably improves/worsens, or if the wrasse stops eating. I will continue with prophylactic copper as part of normal QT and will not add Prazi (or anything else) until the firefish moves out.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Thank you, both, for replying . . .

I added Prazi as a second, prophylactic dose for the firefish (8 days after the first dose it received). I did a 20% water change the next day only in case the Prazi was the cause of the wrasse's difficulty (however unlikely) and added copper only to try to protect the firefish from possible disease brought in by the wrasse. Copper has measured between 2.31 and 2.51 ppm since adding it 5 days ago. I don't imagine the copper is causing the wrasse problems.

Was the video in my post not sufficient? I can try to get a better one (but the wrasse is a bit camera shy).



I have an air stone that causes quite a bit of surface agitation in addition to the surface agitation from the HOB filter. I worried about low oxygen, but was not sure as I have not had a problem with Prazi before (although I have only quarantined half a dozen fish since returning to hobby).

I will keep a close eye on things over the next week and follow up, especially if swimming behavior noticeably improves/worsens, or if the wrasse stops eating. I will continue with prophylactic copper as part of normal QT and will not add Prazi (or anything else) until the firefish moves out.

I saw viseo now- on my phone was still - did not play but did on my PC. I agree with Jay on with my same guess seems like it but suspicious when Prazi was applied

 

[Pickle_soup]

This is anecdotal, but about a month ago, I had a six-line in my qt. He looked great first couple of days, but then he flashed a couple of times, so I added Prezi and airstone to the qt. I have read here that wrasses are not big on Prezi. He was fine with the first treatment. Very active, eating normally, typical six-line behavior. Week after, I did a 25% water change, waited a day for the tank to stabilize a bit, and dosed it again. He was fine for 7 days, on the 8th day, I found him in the morning hiding. He had a hard time swimming. Couldn't stay up, and would twist upside down. Soon after he died. Only thing of notice on his body, the area around his gills had a redish tint to it. Maybe even more air is needed? The powerhead was blowing air from the stone toward the hob filter that was then dumping the bubble deeper into the tank. I am planning on getting 3 wrasses soon, so I am kinda nervous now.

 

[drolmaeye]

This is anecdotal, but about a month ago, I had a six-line in my qt. He looked great first couple of days, but then he flashed a couple of times, so I added Prezi and airstone to the qt. I have read here that wrasses are not big on Prezi. He was fine with the first treatment. Very active, eating normally, typical six-line behavior. Week after, I did a 25% water change, waited a day for the tank to stabilize a bit, and dosed it again. He was fine for 7 days, on the 8th day, I found him in the morning hiding. He had a hard time swimming. Couldn't stay up, and would twist upside down. Soon after he died. Only think of notice on his body, the area around his gills had a redish tint to it. Maybe even more air is needed? The powerhead was blowing air from the stone toward the hob filter that was then dumping the bubble deeper into the tank. I am planning on getting 3 wrasses soon, so I am kinda nervous now.

Sorry to hear your six-line didn't make it; sometimes these fish surprise us even when everything is going well. Worried I'm on the same path with this yellow wrasse.

Best of luck with your incoming trio of wrasses. All we can do is give our best effort.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

This is anecdotal, but about a month ago, I had a six-line in my qt. He looked great first couple of days, but then he flashed a couple of times, so I added Prezi and airstone to the qt. I have read here that wrasses are not big on Prezi. He was fine with the first treatment. Very active, eating normally, typical six-line behavior. Week after, I did a 25% water change, waited a day for the tank to stabilize a bit, and dosed it again. He was fine for 7 days, on the 8th day, I found him in the morning hiding. He had a hard time swimming. Couldn't stay up, and would twist upside down. Soon after he died. Only thing of notice on his body, the area around his gills had a redish tint to it. Maybe even more air is needed? The powerhead was blowing air from the stone toward the hob filter that was then dumping the bubble deeper into the tank. I am planning on getting 3 wrasses soon, so I am kinda nervous now.

I'm not sure that prazi can be implicated in your case - it is degraded by bacteria very quickly and within 36 hours, there is very little left in the water. The cases where people have had issues with wrasses and prazi, it was overnight from the first dose.

Jay

 

[Pickle_soup]

This is anecdotal, but about a month ago, I had a six-line in my qt. He looked great first couple of days, but then he flashed a couple of times, so I added Prezi and airstone to the qt. I have read here that wrasses are not big on Prezi. He was fine with the first treatment. Very active, eating normally, typical six-line behavior. Week after, I did a 25% water change, waited a day for the tank to stabilize a bit, and dosed it again. He was fine for 7 days, on the 8th day, I found him in the morning hiding. He had a hard time swimming. Couldn't stay up, and would twist upside down. Soon after he died. Only think of notice on his body, the area around his gills had a redish tint to it. Maybe even more air is needed? The powerhead was blowing air from the stone toward the hob filter that was then dumping the bubble deeper into the tank.

I'm not sure that prazi can be implicated in your case - it is degraded by bacteria very quickly and within 36 hours, there is very little left in the water. The cases where people have had issues with wrasses and prazi, it was overnight from the first dose.

Jay

Yeah, I was spitballing a little. My initial thought was something bacterial in the gills.

 

[drolmaeye]

Two-part follow-up (would appreciate feedback on second part):

tl;dr, Some symptoms were consistent with UNWD, but other possible factors cannot be ruled out, and seem more likely based on fish's behavior/timeline.

Part 1 (in case it is useful for others in a similar situation): Wrasse was euthanized this morning. Over the past week the fish did not improve. It stopped using sand to sleep, and multiple times we woke up to an apparently moribund fish (laying on side, weak). Each time I expected the worst but came home to find the fish had improved a bit, but still could not swim horizontally unless tail-half of body was essentially dragging on the ground. Feeding response was still there, but as time passed I didn't observe it eating much, but rather it just swam with a bit more energy among the food offerings. Yesterday afternoon the fish laid down near the sand dish but did not move for about 16 hours. Fish continued to breathe but appeared extremely weak. Upon close inspection there was a bit of white feces partially expelled. Fish was unable to make any attempt to avoid the net. While some symptoms were consistent with UNWD, I don't think other internal factors can be ruled out, and the swimming characteristics never declined to the point I see in many other videos with possible UNWD. My best (inexperienced) guess is some physical injury or internal issue.

Part 2: This entire time there has been a firefish in the same QT. Firefish has had 2x Prazi and has been in chelated copper (2.3-2.5 ppm) for 12 days. My plan was to keep it in copper for a while longer and move to DT, but now I am wondering if extra time and/or medication (e.g., additional Prazi) should be considered in case the yellow wrasse passed something along to the firefish. Firefish shows no signs of illness/injury and behaves normally, eats enthusiastically.

On a personal note, I have never euthanized a fish before. When I had aquariums as a teenager, Poseidon always handled that stuff. This is the first fish I've lost in my short time back in the hobby and it was more upsetting than expected. I hope I did right by it. I appreciate Jay Hemdal's thread on the topic; it helped me make a reasonable decision among several unappealing options.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Two-part follow-up (would appreciate feedback on second part):

tl;dr, Some symptoms were consistent with UNWD, but other possible factors cannot be ruled out, and seem more likely based on fish's behavior/timeline.

Part 1 (in case it is useful for others in a similar situation): Wrasse was euthanized this morning. Over the past week the fish did not improve. It stopped using sand to sleep, and multiple times we woke up to an apparently moribund fish (laying on side, weak). Each time I expected the worst but came home to find the fish had improved a bit, but still could not swim horizontally unless tail-half of body was essentially dragging on the ground. Feeding response was still there, but as time passed I didn't observe it eating much, but rather it just swam with a bit more energy among the food offerings. Yesterday afternoon the fish laid down near the sand dish but did not move for about 16 hours. Fish continued to breathe but appeared extremely weak. Upon close inspection there was a bit of white feces partially expelled. Fish was unable to make any attempt to avoid the net. While some symptoms were consistent with UNWD, I don't think other internal factors can be ruled out, and the swimming characteristics never declined to the point I see in many other videos with possible UNWD. My best (inexperienced) guess is some physical injury or internal issue.

Part 2: This entire time there has been a firefish in the same QT. Firefish has had 2x Prazi and has been in chelated copper (2.3-2.5 ppm) for 12 days. My plan was to keep it in copper for a while longer and move to DT, but now I am wondering if extra time and/or medication (e.g., additional Prazi) should be considered in case the yellow wrasse passed something along to the firefish. Firefish shows no signs of illness/injury and behaves normally, eats enthusiastically.

On a personal note, I have never euthanized a fish before. When I had aquariums as a teenager, Poseidon always handled that stuff. This is the first fish I've lost in my short time back in the hobby and it was more upsetting than expected. I hope I did right by it. I appreciate Jay Hemdal's thread on the topic; it helped me make a reasonable decision among several unappealing options.

Sorry to hear.

I agree, the lessened feeding response and white feces don’t quite line up with classic UNWD - though there are probably some variations in symptoms.

Jay

 

[drolmaeye]

Sorry to hear.

I agree, the lessened feeding response and white feces don’t quite line up with classic UNWD - though there are probably some variations in symptoms.

Jay

Would you recommend that I modify the quarantine procedure for the remaining Firefish in any way? Do I need to do any additional treatments given that it was sharing a tank with yellow wrasse. It is not showing any signs of illness or distress.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Would you recommend that I modify the quarantine procedure for the remaining Firefish in any way? Do I need to do any additional treatments given that it was sharing a tank with yellow wrasse. It is not showing any signs of illness or distress.

Sorry, I missed that question.

I doubt that the issue with the wrasse would be anything the fire fish will catch but I would complete the copper quarantine and run prazi just to be safe, the wrasse could have had something else that just hadn’t shown up yet.

It is general advice not to move any fish out of a tank where a fish had an undiagnosed issue for at least 14 days, with 30 being safer.

Jay