Prices going up again?

[BeanAnimal]

Again, assuming a lot here, making insults, and trying to get debate going. Congrats on wasting your time and coming off worse.

Of course, instead of deflecting and making this personal, you could simply show my assumption to be wrong or at least articulate what you feel a valid profit margin is.

If you didn't want a debate or conversation, then you should have skipped the thread, as that is the topic at hand.

Let's try this: You can't hop into a room and say elephants are dumb without being prepared to defend your position, especially if somebody in the room knows a lot about elephants. When that person responds to you and you say more silly things about elephants, it is a reasonable assumption that you don't know anything about elephants. You can't then pretend to be insulted.

 

[Uncle99]

In my area, coral sales dropping.
Sales have started, last week 50% off the jacked up price cause it didn’t sell through combined with record inflation.

Reefers now saying NO to sky is the limit pricing models.

Keep up the good work!

 

[jimfish98]

Of course, instead of deflecting and making this personal, you could simply show my assumption to be wrong or at least articulate what you feel a valid profit margin is.

If you didn't want a debate or conversation, then you should have skipped the thread, as that is the topic at hand.

Let's try this: You can't hop into a room and say elephants are dumb without being prepared to defend your position, especially if somebody in the room knows a lot about elephants. When that person responds to you and you say more silly things about elephants, it is a reasonable assumption that you don't know anything about elephants. You can't then pretend to be insulted.

Is there a part of 'I am not going to debate" that you cannot grasp? I keep my business and work life separate from online for reasons and will not whip it out for you when you bark off insults. Feel free to keep posting these comments as if it will get you somewhere.

 

[BeanAnimal]

In my area, coral sales dropping.
Sales have started, last week 50% off the jacked up price cause it didn’t sell through combined with record inflation.

Reefers now saying NO to sky is the limit pricing models.

Keep up the good work!

The inflation is not just affecting the buyers, it is affecting the sellers, many of whom will not make it without their "jacked up" prices which I am sure some are.

Coral pricing and hard goods pricing are two very different things. Coral farming is a fairly easy to enter market and/or can even be done on the side. Prices are much more a function of true supply and demand. As long as people are willing to pay the prices, the prices will increase.

Markets like this tend to self correct to an extent and for the last few years people have been more than wiling (even if unhappy) to pay the asking prices.

But be careful what you wish for too... With fewer vendors there is less selection in both product and who you want to do business with. It is a double edged sword, because then prices rise due to demand. ;)

 

[BeanAnimal]

I keep my business and work life separate from online for reasons and will not whip it out for you when you bark off insults. Feel free to keep posting these comments as if it will get you somewhere.

You did whip out your opinion and its basis was contested. Any assumptions are based on your comments and I have only that to go on. If you find that insulting, I suggest a bit thicker internet skin.

You are free to hold whatever opinion on anything under the sun that you wish. If you post that opinion, don't be shocked if somebody doesn't agree with it and can explain why.

Is there a part of 'I am not going to debate" that you cannot grasp?

There is a very simple fix for that, simply stop responding.

Have a wonderful day.

 

[jimfish98]

You did whip out your opinion and its basis was contested. Any assumptions are based on your comments and I have only that to go on. If you find that insulting, I suggest a bit thicker internet skin.

You are free to hold whatever opinion on anything under the sun that you wish. If you post that opinion, don't be shocked if somebody doesn't agree with it and can explain why.


There is a very simple fix for that, simply stop responding.

Have a wonderful day.

 

[Richard baker]

So you are mad that technology has changed and they moved on from an older deign and you can‘t upgrade?

Is the light overpriced? I don’t think it is a good value, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that it is a product of pure overpricing or greed either. To that end, my comments are in general and not geared toward a single product from a single vendor.

No not at all what I am mad about is them charging more money for less of a value have you personally tested each light ? Because I have I have been reefing over 20 years so not a newbie just complaining by a long shot and you may have missed the part of having over 10s of thousands in my reef tank so I obviously don’t mind spending the money . I respect your opinion that you are making assumptions none of us have or know how to run a business and we are ignorant, I’m kinda thinking you may have a vested interest at this point . And my point is they stress stability and I agree with this so if we are in need of a upgrade because of puck life should we not have a way to fix the existing lights at a cost of course and being the are a premium company if not parts should we not be able to upgrade to the new 1000.00 light that is equal or better then the previous version ?

 

[BeanAnimal]

:rolling-on-the-floor-laughing: If you can just manage to get the last word you will win without ever having to back your opinion!

 

[jimfish98]

:rolling-on-the-floor-laughing: If you can just manage to get the last word you will win without ever having to back your opinion!

Says the guy writing TLDR posts over and over again hoping for a different outcome. At this point responses are for fun to poke at your quest to prove yourself right, superior, or whatever you think you are.

 

[BeanAnimal]

No not at all what I am mad about is them charging more money for less of a value have you personally tested each light ?

I don't care for their fixtures, company or value proposition. They are an expensive fixture and I think the software sucks. I think there are other viable options out there at the same or better price points. But that is just my opinion, other's may wholly disagree.

Yes - had 3x XR30W. I think they were gen 2 and I upgraded them to PIR lenses and I think the pro boards. One recently died (15+ years later) so I have purchased NooPsyche K7s (the firmware/app is terrible) and then GHL Mitras. They are not ideal either, but work well with my GHL setup.

That said, I don't think the price if the Radions is a result of tremendously inflated profit or greed.

I’m kinda thinking you may have a vested interest at this point

Not by a long shot. I don't monetize this hobby, nor do I solicit or accept freebies from vendors, especially in trade for positive comments or reviews.

. And my point is they stress stability and I agree with this so if we are in need of a upgrade because of puck life should we not have a way to fix the existing lights at a cost of course and being the are a premium company if not parts should we not be able to upgrade to the new 1000.00 light that is equal or better then the previous version ?

I don't agree here to an extent, even if I understand the sentiment. In an ideal world customer history and loyalty should count for something, but it usually doesn't.

As for repair parts for discontinued products, that is a real world cost that most companies will only carry for so long. Again, it would be great, but if you read my point early in the thread you will understand that in a market this small durable goods sales are not a sustainable business model. To survive, they must sell you new products on a fairly short cycle.

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

I think they were gen 2 and I upgraded them to PIR lenses and I think the pro boards. One recently died (15+ years later)

I still have Gen 1s lighting my sump, I just recently noticed via the reflection of the water that the leds are starting to die out one by one.

Not bad for a light from circa 2011.

One thing to note about passed on cost is also legal fees to protect patents. I see knock off gear popping up all the time. And when one company gets swatted down, another emerges in ita place.

 

[Batt]

That's funny inflation. Inflation has dropped and hasn't gone up since the last 6 months. There just charger you for the import increase they did on China. All there parts are imported from China since echotech was bought out. That's why they don't tell you the brand of leds anymore. Evey box said what brand leds they used up till gen 4. Then they stopped. So your paying for a cheap built light. But what your really paying for is just the name.

 

[Batt]

Yes, but more of a merger. Ecotech Marine, BRS, Aqua Illumination, Neptune Systems, and Leap (reptile stuff) are now all part of the same company. Aperture Pet and Life.
https://www.apetlife.com/

They were bought out look it up. Bought out by Bertram Capital. Why do you think randy left. He didn't like the direction the company was going to go and had no say about it. So he took his cut and left

 

[BeanAnimal]

Says the guy writing TLDR posts over and over again hoping for a different outcome. At this point responses are for fun to poke at your quest to prove yourself right, superior, or whatever you think you are.

Jim I don't hope for or care about an outcome. I am here to converse with people who may or may not have the same opinions.

You posted your opinion regarding pricing and markup in a public thread on that topic. I articulated why I disagreed with your premise and facts and gave you ample opportunity to clarify. Instead of participating in a conversation that you entered, you have opted to deflect and carry on.

I am still more than willing to listen to what you think fair profit margins are, or any other aspect of this topic. But, as you have openly admitted you simply want to troll for fun. I think that pretty much puts the entirety of our discussion in perspective.

 

[BeanAnimal]

That's funny inflation. Inflation has dropped and hasn't gone up since the last 6 months.

Honest question... by what metric and what inflationary period? Also, what do you think the carry on effects and timeframe are for a rise or fall in inflation?

There just charger you for the import increase they did on China. All there parts are imported from China since echotech was bought out. That's why they don't tell you the brand of leds anymore. Evey box said what brand leds they used up till gen 4. Then they stopped. So your paying for a cheap built light. But what your really paying for is just the name.

Parts and Manufacturing in China or not, there is still significant real world overhead that US and EU companies must shoulder and those costs have skyrocketed, as have the prices of goods from China, who themselves are in the middle of a financial crisis.

As for the quality of the lights now vs prior generations, I can't speak to that.

 

[jimfish98]

Jim I don't hope for or care about an outcome. I am here to converse with people who may or may not have the same opinions.

You posted your opinion regarding pricing and markup in a public thread on that topic. I articulated why I disagreed with your premise and facts and gave you ample opportunity to clarify. Instead of participating in a conversation that you entered, you have opted to deflect and carry on.

I am still more than willing to listen to what you think fair profit margins are, or any other aspect of this topic. But, as you have openly admitted you simply want to troll for fun. I think that pretty much puts the entirety of our discussion in perspective.

Since you assume I know nothing with zero business, finance, or retail knowledge....lets just play with some number like an idiot see what it shows.

Current research on retail shows an average mark up from retailer to consumer at just over 30%. This is in line with AI items at least as stores can run pocket unadvertised sales at 10-20% and still retain a profit. Given an item like a Hydra 32 has MAP pricing of $429, that means the cost to the retailer is around $330 per unit. Current research also shows that the typical mark up from wholesaler (AI) to the retailer is at a 50% average currently on electronics. Given that rate, it would place the cost to AI from the Manufacturer at about $220.51. Obviously there is about a 20% mark up from the actual factory floor to the wholesaler, but that is not a profit margin I really care about.

The problem with the numbers is that it is blatantly obvious that it does not cost anywhere near that to make the unit. If I can walk into a Walmart right now and walk out with a 32" HD Smart TV for under $100, based on the same averages the cost from manufacturer to the wholesaler is about $50. One cannot reasonably argue that a Hydra costs more to make. The physical amount of materials (plastics, electronic components, boxing, etc) far exceeds that of the Hydra 32 and labor would far exceed it as well. For ***** and giggles let's just say its the same cost from manufacturer to wholesaler. For the retail cost to be $330 based on prior calculations, that means there is a mark up from AI as a wholesaler to the LFS retailer of roughly 660%. While that is great for AI, that is price gouging the customers.

Again, playing with numbers here. Lets again go with that $50 cost to the wholesaler and apply only a 200% mark up, the actual cost to consumer would be roughly $130. Hell at a 300% mark up our cost would still be under $200. The inflated mark up impacts the mark up from retailer to consumer.

But again, what the heck do I know?

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

If I can walk into a Walmart right now and walk out with a 32" HD Smart TV for under $100, based on the same averages the cost from manufacturer to the wholesaler is about $50. One cannot reasonably argue that a Hydra costs more to make. The physical amount of materials (plastics, electronic components, boxing, etc)

I think you're digging yourself a hole.

Out of all the people that walk into Walmart to purchase a TV, how many of those people are also buying reef lights.

Walmart televisions can cost less because of the bulk in which they're manufactured.

If reefing companies can achieve those kind of numbers in manufacturing, then I would venture to guess that led fixtures would be more in line of that Walmart television.

 

[jimfish98]

I think you're digging yourself a hole.

Out of all the people that walk into Walmart to purchase a TV, how many of those people are also buying reef lights.

Walmart televisions can cost less because of the bulk in which they're manufactured.

If reefing companies can achieve those kind of numbers in manufacturing, then I would venture to guess that led fixtures would be more in line of that Walmart television

The comparison is the product cost, not who's shopping where and what for. The physical components, amount of plastic, packing cardboard and styraphom, how many units can fit on a pallet, etc.... A Hydra 23 is smaller than my hand and likely costs half as much to make and get to the wholesaler. Running numbers at the same cost as the tv compensates for volume production more than enough.

 

[Richard baker]

I agree with a lot of your points but for years Ecotech has produced extremely high quality products like you said u had one just died and it’s 15 years maybe that’s why the newer models are just not as robust so as a customer I don’t mind paying a premium for something of great quality hell I wish they would create a commercial version that is robust and they would support for years to come and of course I would be willing to pay a high premium for that . But like I said befor there new light which cost 1000.00 does not put out half the par as the gen 4 s and they simply do not penetrate larger deeper tanks so for me 1000.00 for that light is greed it is less quality then the previous light that was cheaper . Now if the gen 5 and gen 6 had better numbers with the spread and the software you must use with them did not suck I would definitely pay it . To me they started a company with top notch products got bought out and now are squeezeing every penny out of the customer and going backwards on quality just don’t make sense

 

[ReefStable]

It's unfortunate, but yep, the prices on everything under the "Aperture Pet and Life" umbrella is going up.

Some of this I'm sure is due to the logistics of the size of the company(s) at this point.

To be fair to all parties though, the prices of everything is up.
Inflation from 2020 - 2021 was 4.7%, 2021 - 2022 hit 8% and another 4.9% from 2022 - 2023.
To put this in perspective, average inflation since 2010 was less than 2% (only a few years at or above that).

That being said, there are GREAT options available as lower price points, like the Orphek OR3 bars and Reef Breeders!