Probable new approach in STN syndrome?

Jose Mayo · Apr 21, 2018

So ... there is still a lot to discover about the microbiology of our hobby, and if you are one of those who likes to dig deeper into these subjects, you may often come across information that is at least astonishing;

In the following article, I read that Vibrio vulnificus, a bacterium usually involved as a likely participant in the context of coral diseases, can also cause human disease by consuming seafood, especially raw oysters, but will not always cause disease:

It needs to multiply in a medium rich in iron, to become infectious! (could it be, the excess of iron in the environment, a triggering factor for STN?)

Would this "presence of iron" also be necessary to infect corals? We do not know yet, but if there's smoke in there, there may be fire.

Besides this information, the article brings a table of antibiotics suitable for the control of Vibrio vulnificus, which may be interesting for the development of this discussion.

Read below:
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?scr...0036-46652001000500005&lng=en&nrm=iso&tlng=en

Regards

Jose Mayo · Apr 21, 2018

Just letting the mind walk ... if the infectivity of Vibrio vulnificus is iron dependent, and if this microorganism plays an important role in coral diseases, as a very present part of the microbial complex involved, perhaps the concentration of iron in our aquariums has an importance higher than previously predicted and perhaps its induced limitation with the use of chelators, if necessary, may represent a pathway to be followed for the control of these diseases, especially STN.

There is a specific chelator for iron (which is also capable of binding to aluminum), which has been developed for use in human medicine, but has also been used in testing and is known to be safe for corals (but not for zooxanthellae). whose study for use in aquaria may perhaps be developed. This chelator is desferrioxamine B (Desferal® Vials, 500mg or 2g - Novartis Lab) and appears to be very effective.

However, there is a limit that should not be exceeded in iron depletion because it is also a very important element for the proper functioning of zooxanthella photosystems and when their concentration is below or above optimal levels, also depending on temperature and of the intensity of illumination to which the coral is submitted, oxidative stress bleaching may occur, as read in the article below:

https://digitalcommons.library.umaine.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1301&context=orsp_reports

Regards

pdxmonkeyboy · Apr 22, 2018

extremely interesting stuff, especially because i am the STN master :)

Myka · Apr 22, 2018

Hedgedrew66 said:
I’m not sure the answer but taking out corals one by one and treating is only a partial answer

That's all we have for many fish diseases. It's not perfect, but at least it's something. :)

BigJohnny · Apr 22, 2018

drawman said:
Very very interesting. So I'm assuming a product like Seachem Kanaplex would suffice? I wonder at what ratio you would mix?

As I said I am going through an STN event and who knows I may try this...if I do I will sure document.

Yes kanaplex is kanamycin. She said there's no set ratio/dose so just try mixing in a little.

Velcro · Apr 22, 2018

Interesting about the iron. I had high iron on my Triton test.

Jose Mayo · Apr 22, 2018

Velcro said:
Interesting about the iron. I had high iron on my Triton test.

I was quite surprised, with the possibility that maybe the iron is a possible cause of the altered balance between coral and its surface microbiota, especially Vibrio vulníficus.

I'll have to look for more information ...

Regards

Ashley Kekua · Jan 13, 2019

did the iodine dosing stop the stn velcro?

Ashley Kekua · Jan 13, 2019

Velcro said:
Ampicillin is a beta-lactam antibiotic, which are known to be fairly unstable in aqueous environments. That being said, it looks like ampicillin in saline tends to only degrade abnout 10% in 2-3 days so the one dose may be sufficient.

Thanks for the reply. I actually did dose iodine slowly over the last week up to NSW level so maybe that will help :)

did the iodine help?

PSXerholic · Mar 2, 2019

Jose Mayo said:
As far as I know, there is still no experience in aquarism with this treatment, but some things I know, I can say:

- The best ampicillin for aquaristic purpose is the injectable, for human intravenous use. It comes in bottles of 500 or 1000 mg in the form of powder for diluition in distilled water for injections or RO / DI.

- It is diluted with 2 to 3 ml of water in the vial itself, and then this first dilution and re-diluted in 98 or 97 ml of water, giving a concentration of 5 or 10 mg / ml at this dilution.

- At this dilution, at room temperature, it is stable for up to 12 hours, after which time autocatalysis begins. For this reason, it should be administered to the aquarium every 12 hours, with partial changes of water, to avoid accumulation.

- The dosage used in the experiment under controlled conditions and with pharmaceutical grade drugs of known origin was 1.0 mg / liter every 12 hours with 50% water exchange.

- Ampicillin alone was able to halt the WBD process in the tested acropores, being considered cured with six days of treatment without progression of the lesions.

- Ampicillin did not act on the protozoan Philaster lucinda, who is able to eat live coral tissue on the banks of the lesion, but Metronidazole did the job of eliminating it, at the same dosage of 1 mg / liter 12/12 hours.

- The combined use of the two drugs, at the dose described, appears to have potential to control coral disease under aquarium-hospital conditions within six days, according to the study presented above.

Although this study seems promising, there is so far no use protocol that contemplates this approach in aquarism. In an approximate drawing, and in my opinion, the sick coral should be transferred as soon as possible to a treatment environment with the minimum support conditions, such as water oxygenation (air injection by porous stone), blue spectrum light, good circulation and stable temperature, according to the requirements of the species. Because of frequent water changes, I believe that levels of ammonia and nutrients are not a concern.

Best regards

Hey Jose,
Long time no hear ;-)

Concerning this section here:

- Ampicillin did not act on the protozoan Philaster lucinda, who is able to eat live coral tissue on the banks of the lesion, but Metronidazole did the job of eliminating it, at the same dosage of 1 mg / liter 12/12 hour

So for a 1000 Liter Reef tank,
I would only need 1gram of Metronidazole to kill the Philaster???

Do I get this right?

-Andre

Jose Mayo · Mar 2, 2019

Hi, PSXerholic ...

Yes. That's what the experiment above says: dose Metronidazole 1 mg / liter every 12 hours for 6 days.

Regards

PSXerholic · Mar 4, 2019

Jose Mayo said:
Hi, PSXerholic ...

Yes. That's what the experiment above says: dose Metronidazole 1 mg / liter every 12 hours for 6 days.

Regards

Read the article again. They did apply 100microgram/ml which is 100mg/L, quite a difference ;-)

Jose Mayo · Mar 4, 2019

PSXerholic said:
Read the article again. They did apply 100microgram/ml which is 100mg/L, quite a difference ;-)

Yes, it's true, for some reason I got distracted by transcribing. One more reason to always post the article link.

Regards

PSXerholic · Mar 4, 2019

Jose Mayo said:
Yes, it's true, for some reason I got distracted by transcribing. One more reason to always post the article link.

Regards

Anyways thanks!

Charlie’s Frags · Mar 4, 2019

All of my stn stopped when I quit using gfo and carbon dosing

JCOLE · Mar 19, 2021

I thought it would be a good time to breathe life back into this thread. I have an Acropora dominate system. I went through a tank crash a couple of months ago. I dosed Vibrant for two months, then Chemiclean, then Fluconazole all back to back. At the same time, I had low iodine and high potassium and also switched out my low end LED's for all ATI T5's. It was a recipe for disaster. I lost about 40 pieces throughout all of this.

Everything is looking good now with growth and color but I still have a couple of existing pieces that have STN at the bottom and working their way up. My thoughts were that all of the things I dosed wiped out or majorly affected the Biome and killed off good bacteria. I often wonder if this did happen then maybe bad bacteria such as Vibrio,etc have taken over.

I purchased a bottle of Dr. Tim's ECO-Balance because it is supposed to be good bacteria and help to fight against Vibrio, etc.

What is everyone's opinion on this? I really am against making any other changes at this point but would like to stop the STN if possible through adding good bacteria as ECO-Balance.

These are a couple of corals with STN. I have about 5 corals out of 40 that look like this. The rest look good.

Secale

Nasuta

One week later on Nasuta

PSXerholic · Mar 19, 2021

JCOLE said:
I thought it would be a good time to breathe life back into this thread. I have an Acropora dominate system. I went through a tank crash a couple of months ago. I dosed Vibrant for two months, then Chemiclean, then Fluconazole all back to back. At the same time, I had low iodine and high potassium and also switched out my low end LED's for all ATI T5's. It was a recipe for disaster. I lost about 40 pieces throughout all of this.

Everything is looking good now with growth and color but I still have a couple of existing pieces that have STN at the bottom and working their way up. My thoughts were that all of the things I dosed wiped out or majorly affected the Biome and killed off good bacteria. I often wonder if this did happen then maybe bad bacteria such as Vibrio,etc have taken over.

I purchased a bottle of Dr. Tim's ECO-Balance because it is supposed to be good bacteria and help to fight against Vibrio, etc.

What is everyone's opinion on this? I really am against making any other changes at this point but would like to stop the STN if possible through adding good bacteria as ECO-Balance.

These are a couple of corals with STN. I have about 5 corals out of 40 that look like this. The rest look good.

Secale

Nasuta

One week later on Nasuta

Read up this FB post on the Witchhazel treatment and other useful info what to avoid and to do.

Reefahholic · Mar 19, 2021

Interesting read. I’m still quite interested how the Philaster’s (scavengers) always know exactly when show up at the scene. It made sense to me (judging by their body shape) that they could be the primary cause for the actual RTN event itself. They are literally long, slender, and rapid moving critters (Not to mention their massive numbers). They’re comparable to a Greyhound or Cheetah in the natural world. They appear to be built for speed. Exactly what’s needed to wipe out an entire tank within hours. Although... they didn’t appear to be the first cause, they definitely finished the job. Every time I see a video of those things it freaks me out.