PS Corals Turning Pale--Wondering if anyone owns these specific SPS.....

[Dr. Jim]

I know pale SPS has been discussed many times and I don't mean to rehash all the NO3/PO4 debate, but I'm wondering if anyone has experiences with any of the following specific corals (in particular, in regard to whether they are sensitive to high or low light, and/or high or low NO3 and PO4 (because these 3 corals have become pale recently):

-RR Applejacks
-TSA Mile High Latistella
-RR Red Diablo

I set up a Red Sea Reefer 170 (40Gal cube) in early January 2020 as an "experimental" tank while waiting for my house to sell......which is taking a long time. When I move, I plan to set up my "dream tank" and get back into SPS. This small tank will be easy to move, (will become my SPS Q-tank), and gave me an excuse to buy and learn a GHL Controller System AND play with LED's for the first time. (I've been all halides with SPS for the past 24 years). I also wanted to challenge SPS in a "young" tank. So, I have a lot going against me to start: small tank; new tank; LED "newbie"....(but many years of experience with SPS).

System/Parameters:
-Bare bottom
-25 lbs Gulf of Mexico Live Rock (teeming with life); 25 lbs artificial rock (for the first time; never again!)
-I.O. Salt. (use to always use, and prefer, ESV salt); AWC daily (ave. 15%/mo); SG 1.025 (Milwaukee Digital refractometer and BRS refractometer)
-Set up for Triton system 4-part but only dosing 1/8 rec dosage (just to make sure GHL Controller is working).
-ATO: Kalk when ph is below 8.15; "Non-Kalk" when above 8.15 (via GHL Controller).
-Two G5 Radions (1 Pro; 1Blue; I use the AB+ setting with an extra touch of Cool White). I want to play with them to see if I will want 8-10 of them on my "dream tank," consider a different brand of LED (such as the GHL Mitras), or go back to halides; ave. 250 PAR (low because of relatively new frags.
-Long-time user of Zeovit additives: (1/8 dosage, if at all, right now)
-ALK: 9-10.5. Started high but coming down. (I think I.O. is high in alk and maybe the artificial rock is a factor??) . Would prefer around 8.0; removed Kalk source recently.
-PO4: struggling to keep above zero (typical of a new tank); auto dosing 12x/day, playing with dosages. Hanna Phosphorus checker and Red Sea test kit. (Aiming for 0.06-1.0 ??)
-NO3: Initially around 16; Recently less than 1. Also dosing 12x/day; playing with dosages. Red Sea Test kit. (Aiming for 3 - 5?)
-Temp: 78F
-Skimmer w/ DC pump: Recently lowered flow to reduce skimming (to reduce nutrients outflow).
-HOB Refugium w/ reverse photoperiod: Nothing much in it now; first batch of Chaeto died except for a few strands and some Gulf macro. (Probably added too early).
-Fish: Kole tang; Yellow tang; 2 percula; bangai; yellow coris; solar wrasse; orchid dotty; Royal gramma;
6-line wrasse; Feed heavily 3x/day (my frozen concoction, flakes, pellets).
Flow: 2 MP-10's and Return Flow. (Plenty of flow)
- 18 SPS frags were added 5-6 weeks ago from R2R online sales. I should mention that many arrived pale or brown to begin with.
-Added 4 types of pods early on, but think they are gone. Will get more.
-Snails and hermits (and Chaeto) arriving in 2 days. (And, getting 18 more SPS from a friend in 2 days! More fun!)

In the past, I never spent too much time or effort following nitrates and phosphates. As long as my corals looked good, I guess I didn't care. But now, with the newly PALE frags and so many variables, I need to decide on a level. I guess I always was in the "PO4 less than 0.03 and nitrates around 2 school." But I'm wondering if anyone has strong feelings about these levels, especially anyone that has the above-mentioned corals. Also, anyone with Radions, (or LED's), what do you think of my 250 PAR levels for these relatively tiny and "new" frags, and again, for the above-mentioned "names" of corals, in particular? Any comments, questions and suggestions are welcome!

I know these photos aren't the greatest....will be working on aquarium photography soon!

RR Applejacks. Should be reddish. Never had color since I got it but it is turning pale:

You can see it turning pale on the R side of the base. (It looks worse in the picture than it really is though)
That's a BC Atom Bomb in R background....not as red as it should be.

(Below): View of Applejacks from side. Not good quality photo because of distance, but this side of the frag is a little darker. May be getting more light because it is leaning a little (but a lot of light is being reflected off the glass in the first photo, so its hard to know if the pale side is due to too much or too little light, if light is even a factor).

TSA Mile High Latistella (below)
The tips of this one turned white (dead) 2 days ago. I snipped off the dead parts and moved the frag to a new location (with slightly less light). It was originally near the Applejacks. (Also in the photo: on Left is a
RR Phantom and on Right is a RR Sour Durham. This frag looked almost dead when I got it. It was very pale with what looked like dying tissue. I thought for sure it would die but it actually came back and has a fairly thick layer of "skin" although it is brown. In the middle (back) is a RR Wolverine with pretty decent yellow color (not like color in photo).

Main purpose of next photo is to show the RR Red Diablo (top right). This frag never had much color from the day I got it, but now is turning slightly pale. Other red corals (not shown in this photo) seem to have lost their "redness" such as a RR Firecracker, BC Atom Bomb, and WWC Heartbreaker but seem stable otherwise. (So, that makes me wonder if there is something specific that is affecting "red" corals...or is the red fading for the same reasons as the other corals turning pale? Probably, I think).
Also shown are (left to right): RR Phantom (back; partially hidden), RR Sour Durban, and RR Wolverine (tiny; yellow didn't come out in photo). In L foreground: BC Bleeding Tree

Closing comments: I know that STABILITY is important, and with a new tank (and some GHL Controller mishaps) stability of some variables hasn't been perfect, especially when trying to adjust the low nitrates and phosphates. Although I am using dosers (with 12 doses/day) for the most part, I also occasionally give a bolus of Brightwells NeoNitro and NeoPhos. (For the auto-dosers, I use LOUDWOLF Sodium Nitrate and TriCalcium Phosphate).

So....what do you think? Thanks for helping!

 

[Dr. Jim]

Title is supposed to be "SPS Corals Turning Pale...…"
Not sure if a moderator can correct that?? Sorry.

 

[Neoalchemist]

Other than being on pest patrol at night with a flashlight. If it were me I would probably be looking to get no3 up a bit more to around 15. With po4, I like your goal numbers except I would absolutely invest in the Hanna Phosphorous ulr checker, model # HI 736. It is the only po4 test thats margin of error is inside of our recommended range.
Since I have experienced many of the downside to haveing po4 on the edge and how short of a time period low po4 can cause problems. I wonder how I got along without it in past sps tanks. Back in the day I believe we just mostly had high po4 or none and people who unwittingly found a balance had the best color growth ratio.
It may be more of a battle for you in the first year since you dont have a sand bed to act as a nutrient sink.
Im finding my best color to growth ratio at po4 .05-.1 and no3 close to 15.
I rarely feed coral but fish are well fed and the only thing I dose are kalk in top off 24/7 and iodide.
When po4 tends to the low side I do seem to see my reds pale.

 

[Dr. Jim]

Other than being on pest patrol at night with a flashlight. If it were me I would probably be looking to get no3 up a bit more to around 15. With po4, I like your goal numbers except I would absolutely invest in the Hanna Phosphorous ulr checker, model # HI 736. It is the only po4 test thats margin of error is inside of our recommended range.
Since I have experienced many of the downside to haveing po4 on the edge and how short of a time period low po4 can cause problems. I wonder how I got along without it in past sps tanks. Back in the day I believe we just mostly had high po4 or none and people who unwittingly found a balance had the best color growth ratio.
It may be more of a battle for you in the first year since you dont have a sand bed to act as a nutrient sink.
Im finding my best color to growth ratio at po4 .05-.1 and no3 close to 15.
I rarely feed coral but fish are well fed and the only thing I dose are kalk in top off 24/7 and iodide.
When po4 tends to the low side I do seem to see my reds pale.

That is all good information! Thank you.

I do have the Hanna P checker. Interestingly, every time it reads zero, the Red Sea PO4 kit measures 0.01.... but I tend to listen to the Hanna. But in either case, the PO4 is too low. I am dosing every hour with enough Ca3PO4 to raise the entire tank by 0.01with EACH dose but I am still getting zero. Yesterday, I dosed with Brightwell NeoPhos. 15 minutes later, the reading was 0.13 and 3 hours later it was back to zero. I hate dumping all the PO4 into the tank but feel I have no other choice.
Also, I need to get my alkalinity lower (in a hurry; perhaps 0.5/day) before I lose frags. It's at 9.5 now; 10.1 yesterday. (GHL director; Salifert and Red Sea kits).
I have to find a salt low in alk. The I.O. (Original) that I am using is reading 10.0! (I stopped daily AWC's). Looking at Tropic Marine Pro Reef or Red Sea (blue). I used, and liked, ESV salt for many years (when I use to buy it by the pallet) but just need small amounts for this "temporary" tank.

 

[Neoalchemist]

I used Coralife back in the day mainly because it usually tested between 7 and 7.5 in alk. But that was a long time ago. You can use vinegar to lower alk but i would consider that an emergency measure.

 

[Dr. Jim]

I used Coralife back in the day mainly because it usually tested between 7 and 7.5 in alk. But that was a long time ago. You can use vinegar to lower alk but i would consider that an emergency measure.

I wanted to pick up some Tropic Marine (with alk of 7-8 they advertise) but my LFS doesn't have it and it is on backorder everywhere online it seems. I picked up some Red Sea (blue bucket) and measured the alk at 7.8. I did a 20% water change yesterday and one today and the alk dropped from 9.7 to 9.1, so, I'm getting there. I will do another change tomorrow.

I'm wondering if anyone uses Salifert and Hanna checker for alk? If so, are you finding higher readings with the Salifert? I'm getting a range of results which is frustrating:

Hanna: 9.7
Salifert: 10.5
GHL Director: 8.8 I will recalibrate the probe and try all 3 again tomorrow.

Thanks for responding!

 

[Neoalchemist]

I only use Salifert for alk, but have suspected them of reading high in the past. Thats one of the reasons I target 8.0 dkh because it has a comfortable margin of error in either direction.

 

[Crustaceon]

That is all good information! Thank you.

I do have the Hanna P checker. Interestingly, every time it reads zero, the Red Sea PO4 kit measures 0.01.... but I tend to listen to the Hanna. But in either case, the PO4 is too low. I am dosing every hour with enough Ca3PO4 to raise the entire tank by 0.01with EACH dose but I am still getting zero. Yesterday, I dosed with Brightwell NeoPhos. 15 minutes later, the reading was 0.13 and 3 hours later it was back to zero. I hate dumping all the PO4 into the tank but feel I have no other choice.
Also, I need to get my alkalinity lower (in a hurry; perhaps 0.5/day) before I lose frags. It's at 9.5 now; 10.1 yesterday. (GHL director; Salifert and Red Sea kits).
I have to find a salt low in alk. The I.O. (Original) that I am using is reading 10.0! (I stopped daily AWC's). Looking at Tropic Marine Pro Reef or Red Sea (blue). I used, and liked, ESV salt for many years (when I use to buy it by the pallet) but just need small amounts for this "temporary" tank.

No need to fear Po4. I have to dose enough of it to raise my 65g system from zero on a hanna checker to .1ppm every day. If the tank needs it, then fine. I figure eventually my rocks and sand will be saturated to the point where I can slow or eliminate my need for phosphate dosing. Everything is growing nicely and I’m not seeing any nuisance algae, so it’s not that bad.