Puffer Genus Canthigaster Crab safe?

[MantisShrimpMan]

I had been looking at the puffer on divers den tonight the rare caribbean deepwater gold faced puffer Canthigaster Jamestyleri. It ended up selling already but I figure this question is equally applicable to other puffers from the same genus like valentinis. Heck, I’m also curious in case another one of those goldface ones becomes available in the near future.

Would one of these mini puffers be safe with a larger crab like my Calappa Flammea? I know other beaked fish like certain aggressive triggerfish are more than happy to go after large well armored crustaceans but I’m not sure if the same is true of the smaller puffers. I’m hoping their invert predation is limited to the likes of more vulnerable types such as snails and hermits.

 

[Steve and his Animals]

I would be more concerned putting a small toby like jamestyleri with such a large carnivorous crab like a flammea. I know Calappa species are mainly other-invert-eaters, but if it can hold down a fish I feel it would have no qualms trying to kill and eat it. Larger tobies like valentini and solandri would be a better choice if you wanna try.

 

[MantisShrimpMan]

I would be more concerned putting a small toby like jamestyleri with such a large carnivorous crab like a flammea. I know Calappa species are mainly other-invert-eaters, but if it can hold down a fish I feel it would have no qualms trying to kill and eat it. Larger tobies like valentini and solandri would be a better choice if you wanna try.

I am a big fan of my crab. When I found him in the wild it made my day, hell, it led to me setting up my tank, so I have him to thank for joining this awesome hobby. I have a lot of love for my crab…

but I’m also willing to admit he’s an idiot. Specifically, he’s got the motor skills of a cat standing on a keyboard during a flight simulation video game. Just walking around the tank seems to be unexpectedly difficult for him at times. He’s a spaz.

I have a pair of onyx perculas I picked up as juveniles, fast forward a month later and the female is actually starting to get fairly large (the fact that I don’t have a good sense yet of what is feeding vs what is over feeding is probably contributing to this growth spurt, haha) but with her extra size she’s begun to exhibit way more bold tendencies. When my crab is out and about, she hovers within 2” of him, especially when he’s tearing apart a clam, because she tries to get any particulate matter from it that ends up in the water column. Heck, she’s even accidentally swam into him while I was watching. Never once has any of her nosiness led to him getting defensive or raising his claws at her or anything.

I’ve held him in my hands more times than I can count and he’s only pinched me twice, the first time I wasn’t expecting but it was because I had simply had him out of the water for a while, the second time, I was purposely trying to get bitten, lol.

this all goes to say aside from using them to tear at foods like clams or the occasional unlucky snail, my crab never uses his claws towards other organisms.

these two factors, his general timidness paired with his lame reflexes/dexterity, are why I’d be wayyyy more worried about him then I would be about the puffer. Any fish that eats inverts and actually has the brain to know how to do so stands a massive advantage in that regard. So if the puffer was vindictive, maybe it wouldn’t be able to eat his carapace or claws, but it could sure as heck tear off all his legs and leave him crippled, sorta like what happens in this video:

 

[Steve and his Animals]

I am a big fan of my crab. When I found him in the wild it made my day, hell, it led to me setting up my tank, so I have him to thank for joining this awesome hobby. I have a lot of love for my crab…

but I’m also willing to admit he’s an idiot. Specifically, he’s got the motor skills of a cat standing on a keyboard during a flight simulation video game. Just walking around the tank seems to be unexpectedly difficult for him at times. He’s a spaz.

I have a pair of onyx perculas I picked up as juveniles, fast forward a month later and the female is actually starting to get fairly large (the fact that I don’t have a good sense yet of what is feeding vs what is over feeding is probably contributing to this growth spurt, haha) but with her extra size she’s begun to exhibit way more bold tendencies. When my crab is out and about, she hovers within 2” of him, especially when he’s tearing apart a clam, because she tries to get any particulate matter from it that ends up in the water column. Heck, she’s even accidentally swam into him while I was watching. Never once has any of her nosiness led to him getting defensive or raising his claws at her or anything.

I’ve held him in my hands more times than I can count and he’s only pinched me twice, the first time I wasn’t expecting but it was because I had simply had him out of the water for a while, the second time, I was purposely trying to get bitten, lol.

this all goes to say aside from using them to tear at foods like clams or the occasional unlucky snail, my crab never uses his claws towards other organisms.

these two factors, his general timidness paired with his lame reflexes/dexterity, are why I’d be wayyyy more worried about him then I would be about the puffer. Any fish that eats inverts and actually has the brain to know how to do so stands a massive advantage in that regard. So if the puffer was vindictive, maybe it wouldn’t be able to eat his carapace or claws, but it could sure as heck tear off all his legs and leave him crippled, sorta like what happens in this video:

I figured the chance any Calappa taking down fish is rare but not impossible, slightly higher with how large flammea get. I don't know how big yours is. Maybe I'm overly cautious. Tobies can definitely bother inverts they can't outright eat, but only the full grown larger species would be able to threaten a larger flammea. I would guess you'd be fine with any choice, but smaller deepwater species like jamestyleri and leoparda probably wouldn't take as well to any aggression from larger fish like aggro clowns, although it depends on the individual and environment. I've had leoparda with somewhat aggro clowns with no issue, but you never know.

 

[MantisShrimpMan]

I figured the chance any Calappa taking down fish is rare but not impossible, slightly higher with how large flammea get. I don't know how big yours is. Maybe I'm overly cautious. Tobies can definitely bother inverts they can't outright eat, but only the full grown larger species would be able to threaten a larger flammea. I would guess you'd be fine with any choice, but smaller deepwater species like jamestyleri and leoparda probably wouldn't take as well to any aggression from larger fish like aggro clowns, although it depends on the individual and environment. I've had leoparda with somewhat aggro clowns with no issue, but you never know.

Just curious are jamestyleri rare? When I started trying to research it I didn’t find other websites carrying it

 

[Steve and his Animals]

Just curious are jamestyleri rare? When I started trying to research it I didn’t find other websites carrying it

Yes. I've seen them offered that one time on Diver's Den (that you saw) and once from a Caribbean shipper (that a lot of the industry works with) in their "unusual collections" part of their weekly stock list.

 

[MantisShrimpMan]

Yes. I've seen them offered that one time on Diver's Den (that you saw) and once from a Caribbean shipper (that a lot of the industry works with) in their "unusual collections" part of their weekly stock list.

Which Caribbean shipper? I’ve been trying to track down a specific caribbean invert, so if you’d be willing to share the info this would be MASSIVELY helpful to me. You can also send it to me in a DM if you’d prefer not to share it publicly?

 

[Steve and his Animals]

Which Caribbean shipper? I’ve been trying to track down a specific caribbean invert, so if you’d be willing to share the info this would be MASSIVELY helpful to me. You can also send it to me in a DM if you’d prefer not to share it publicly?

They're a wholesale company; you can't get anything from them directly unless you own a business.

 

[MantisShrimpMan]

They're a wholesale company; you can't get anything from them directly unless you own a business.

I don’t own an LFS but I am well acquainted, even close friends, with several LFS owners, and I can get them to serve as the middleman if I could actually find that this wholesale company could source what I’m seeking. So again- any chance I can get the name of the company?

 

[Steve and his Animals]

I don’t own an LFS but I am well acquainted, even close friends, with several LFS owners, and I can get them to serve as the middleman if I could actually find that this wholesale company could source what I’m seeking. So again- any chance I can get the name of the company?

Yes, Dynasty Marine. They send out a weekly stock list, but I've added stuff to orders that they don't list that they'll look for. Got them to get me slender filefish (Monacanthus tuckeri), a fish I've been looking for for many years. No guarantee they'll actually be able to get it for you in one order is the thing. I know Eric Cohen works with them to supply his sites, so that might be better if you're just looking for one thing.

 

[MantisShrimpMan]

Yes, Dynasty Marine. They send out a weekly stock list, but I've added stuff to orders that they don't list that they'll look for. Got them to get me slender filefish (Monacanthus tuckeri), a fish I've been looking for for many years. No guarantee they'll actually be able to get it for you in one order is the thing. I know Eric Cohen works with them to supply his sites, so that might be better if you're just looking for one thing.

Oh interesting, I’m already in touch with Eric on this exact matter.

I ordered a WYSIWYG item recently and unfortunately the company I ordered it from (not one of Eric’s) killed the specimen before it even got shipped to me. I was so freaking excited I bought the item, so when I found out that it wasn’t coming I was devastated. Specifically- an unusual color morph of a lettuce nudibranch Elysia Crispata. Instead of being a uniform cream teal color this one had red flares on the tips of its “leaves”. I know that’s not a completely one of a kind quality but it’s certainly uncommon and neat. So now I’m trying to track down another atypical lettuce nudi.

 

[Steve and his Animals]

Oh interesting, I’m already in touch with Eric on this exact matter.

I ordered a WYSIWYG item recently and unfortunately the company I ordered it from (not one of Eric’s) killed the specimen before it even got shipped to me. I was so freaking excited I bought the item, so when I found out that it wasn’t coming I was devastated. Specifically- an unusual color morph of a lettuce nudibranch Elysia Crispata. Instead of being a uniform cream teal color this one had red flares on the tips of its “leaves”. I know that’s not a completely one of a kind quality but it’s certainly uncommon and neat. So now I’m trying to track down another atypical lettuce nudi.

The genus Elysia has so many species who knows what's collected when we get "lettuce nudis" from any shipper. I ordered some from Dynasty to see if they would be different from the other shippers I work with, but they didn't send them this last time.

I also ordered two Enchelycore carychroa, the Caribbean chestnut moray, from them as I've been looking for one for well over 6 years now, but they didn't collect any before the shipping date. I wasn't entirely surprised, but I'm gunna keep asking until I get at least one lol.

 

[MantisShrimpMan]

Also back to the puffer convo yeah my clowns aren’t aggressive or territorial, moreso too curious for their own good. Like, it’s not a WISE idea to hang out near a feeding crab. Also, earlier today I was scraping the back wall of my tank, and usually my female clown likes hanging out at the top of the back wall, and she got too close to my hand when I couldn’t see her through my palm and somehow I ended up knocking her out of the water onto the filter sponge of the AIO baffle just behind where this all took place. I got her back in the tank and she got right back to her normal behavior without any issues or anything, just that she exhibits a degree of curiosity that lines up with the expression of “**** around and find out”… and I think it speaks volumes to my crab’s lack of aggression that my clown has not “found out”. Heck, I’ve even seen cases where tridacna clams end up killing overly curious clowns. By comparison it makes my crab look like he’s got the patience of a saint or something.

Which is why I know that if a puffer decided to **** with my crab, there’s not a whole lot he could do to ward off the puffer. So if said puffer were to be especially vicious the way that triggerfish was in the lobster video I included, my crab would likely be helpless to getting its legs ripped off one at a time… which is why I want to make sure the puffer wouldn’t be aggro enough to try such a thing.

 

[MantisShrimpMan]

The genus Elysia has so many species who knows what's collected when we get "lettuce nudis" from any shipper. I ordered some from Dynasty to see if they would be different from the other shippers I work with, but they didn't send them this last time.

I also ordered two Enchelycore carychroa, the Caribbean chestnut moray, from them as I've been looking for one for well over 6 years now, but they didn't collect any before the shipping date. I wasn't entirely surprised, but I'm gunna keep asking until I get at least one lol.

I don’t mean to sound rude but I’m a scuba instructor and I grew up treating fish identification the way that most kids know every Pokémon, so usually speaking if I believe I know the correct scientific name for an organism, further digging will confirm I was right.

and so yes, I’m fairly certain it was actually a Crispata, because none of the other elysia species have quite the same leaf configuration as far as I’m aware. Most of the others like E. Diomedea and E. Clarki have a split down the middle of the “leaves” on their back whereas the Crispata don’t

 

[MantisShrimpMan]

Also back to the puffer convo yeah my clowns aren’t aggressive or territorial, moreso too curious for their own good. Like, it’s not a WISE idea to hang out near a feeding crab. Also, earlier today I was scraping the back wall of my tank, and usually my female clown likes hanging out at the top of the back wall, and she got too close to my hand when I couldn’t see her through my palm and somehow I ended up knocking her out of the water onto the filter sponge of the AIO baffle just behind where this all took place. I got her back in the tank and she got right back to her normal behavior without any issues or anything, just that she exhibits a degree of curiosity that lines up with the expression of “**** around and find out”… and I think it speaks volumes to my crab’s lack of aggression that my clown has not “found out”. Heck, I’ve even seen cases where tridacna clams end up killing overly curious clowns. By comparison it makes my crab look like he’s got the patience of a saint or something.

Which is why I know that if a puffer decided to **** with my crab, there’s not a whole lot he could do to ward off the puffer. So if said puffer were to be especially vicious the way that triggerfish was in the lobster video I included, my crab would likely be helpless to getting its legs ripped off one at a time… which is why I want to make sure the puffer wouldn’t be aggro enough to try such a thing.

Oh one detail I forgot to add my Calappa’s carapace is probably around 2” wide right now and judging from what I’ve read online about max size it seems like they only get to 2.5-3” wide carapace so I’d say my calappa is somewhere in the 60-80% fully grown range. The only time he molted whilst I’ve had him, he pretty much doubled in size, but given the max size of the species that’s doubtful to happen again.

 

[Steve and his Animals]

I don’t mean to sound rude but I’m a scuba instructor and I grew up treating fish identification the way that most kids know every Pokémon, so usually speaking if I believe I know the correct scientific name for an organism, further digging will confirm I was right.

and so yes, I’m fairly certain it was actually a Crispata, because none of the other elysia species have quite the same leaf configuration as far as I’m aware. Most of the others like E. Diomedea and E. Clarki have a split down the middle of the “leaves” on their back whereas the Crispata don’t

I'm not second guessing your ability to differntiate the Elysia species, I question the industry as a whole haha. I order lettuce nudis from various companies and they come in a wide range of sizes, colors, and patterns, but most wholesalers still list their scientific name (if they list one at all) as Elysia crispata. Some just put Elysia sp. which is probably the better idea than to try and guarantee something they can't.

Oh one detail I forgot to add my Calappa’s carapace is probably around 2” wide right now and judging from what I’ve read online about max size it seems like they only get to 2.5-3” wide carapace so I’d say my calappa is somewhere in the 60-80% fully grown range. The only time he molted whilst I’ve had him, he pretty much doubled in size, but given the max size of the species that’s doubtful to happen again.

I've read that they can be just under 4in wide, and I think I remember finding a Japanese youtuber who has one at around that size living by itself. I would be very surprised if any toby except the fully-grown larger species like solandri could do anything meaningful to one of those.

 

[MantisShrimpMan]

I've read that they can be just under 4in wide, and I think I remember finding a Japanese youtuber who has one at around that size living by itself. I would be very surprised if any toby except the fully-grown larger species like solandri could do anything meaningful to one of those.

4” wide carapace alone or with claw “elbows”?

and thank you, this is a great answer to what I was wondering about!

 

[Steve and his Animals]

4” wide carapace alone or with claw “elbows”?

and thank you, this is a great answer to what I was wondering about!

Probably 3.5" without the claw elbows. I don't speak/understand Japanese but this guy seems to keep them fairly large.