Q for everyone are you FOR or AGAINST QT

[HuduVudu]

Hi everyone! I don't QT personally.

Hi

A quick question ... when did you start the hobby? Do you buy QTed fish? How do you obtain your fish?

 

[Scottsquatch]

Ok, how do you know?

Please be thorough on your experience please.

It was usually a big ich outbreak, but once I got some sort of fungal outbreak. Thinking back, my corals themselves never usually had issues, but if I didn't at least inspect plugs, I would get occasional hitchhikers. Some sort of critters that chewed on my zoas once. We are talking back in the 90's here... sorry I can't give specific names or details. I was a rather ignorant newb back then.

 

[Scottsquatch]

How many times did you do this? How long ago did this happen? How long have you been in the hobby? How long ago did you start doing QT? How many batches of fish have you moved through it? What is your QT process generally? Please include equipment explaination and medication protocols if you use them.

Start over with the same tank? Did you make changes? What did your losses look like?

When did you start the hobby ... reefing? What country do you live in? If the US what general area? What kind of access do you have to LFSs?

Start over as in needing to restock my fish. Not a whole tank breakdown, although maybe I should have. the frustration eventually led to me leaving the hobby for a time and then doing a lot of research and educating myself before my next foray into the hobby. At that point I had a QT tank and not only inspected plugs, but dipped corals too. I had a LOT less problems after making that standard practice. This next go around I'm even investing in a decent set up just to QT corals as well, don't want any headaches.

 

[HuduVudu]

Up until a month ago, I had never QT'd anything.

How long have you had a marine aquarium?
Did you have a protocol for fish introduction before?
How many fish had you kept before you started QT? How many survived?

Then I purchased a royal gramma, and before I knew it my blue tang had ich and gill flukes, a fatal combination as it turned out.

How big was your display? How long had you had it up? Did other fish contract anything? Did other fish survive?

I've now set up a 40g QT and EVERYTHING is going through it.

What is the size of your DT? What is your protocol for maintaining it? Do you always keep it up? Do you use it for medication or observation?

Fish, Coral, snails, EVERYTHING.

If you use medication how do you handle the QT for your inverts?

Thank you in advance for your responses.

 

[HuduVudu]

It was usually a big ich outbreak, but once I got some sort of fungal outbreak.

How often did this happen?

We are talking back in the 90's here... sorry I can't give specific names or details. I was a rather ignorant newb back then.

How long where you in the hobby before you stopped?

the frustration eventually led to me leaving the hobby for a time and then doing a lot of research and educating myself before my next foray into the hobby.

How long did you leave the hobby? When did you get back in?
What sources have you used for education?

At that point I had a QT tank and not only inspected plugs, but dipped corals too.

I am confused. Is your QT for fish or coral?

 

[HuduVudu]

Unfortunately most newbies these days are starting out with Dead Rock, Dead Sand, and an overpriced Sea Salt Mix, plus a couple of bottles of bacterial spores.

Why do you think that that is the case? Live rock is easily available.
Do you think live rock starts are better than dead rock starts?

If I had started a marine tank back in 1975 when I got my parents to buy me a tropical aquarium for my 11th birthday, I would probably would not have any issues either.

LOL laughing at this. The issues were just as bad then and I would say midly worse. Equipment has come a long way.

 

[N.Sreefer]

Why do you think that that is the case? Live rock is easily available.
Do you think live rock starts are better than dead rock starts?

LOL laughing at this. The issues were just as bad then and I would say midly worse. Equipment has come a long way.

I def do dry rock is one headache after another the biodiversity from live rock cant be beat it takes so long to build up a good ecosystem relying on a couple pound of dry rock to seed a bunch of dry rock. I wish I knew live rock would be so hard to source in Canada these days because I would've kept alot more of my old rock. Oh for want of what could've been..

Wasn't around in the 70s but even in the last 10 years its crazy how far equipment has come. The blackboxes when I first tried leds fried EVERYTHING under them. Now we have leds that look and grow almost as good as hps.

 

[HuduVudu]

I wish I knew live rock would be so hard to source in Canada these days because I would've kept alot more of my old rock.

You guys can't get rock up there?

Wasn't around in the 70s but even in the last 10 years its crazy how far equipment has come. The blackboxes when I first tried leds fried EVERYTHING under them. Now we have leds that look and grow almost as good as hps.

Yah the last ten years has been a real boon.

The first piece of equipment that changed everything IMO was ... you're gonna laugh ... the wet/dry. This was the first time the hobby really started to branch into it's own thing. Before the wet/dry everything came from the freshwater world.

 

[N.Sreefer]

You guys can't get rock up there?

Yah the last ten years has been a real boon.

The first piece of equipment that changed everything IMO was ... you're gonna laugh ... the wet/dry. This was the first time the hobby really started to branch into it's own thing. Before the wet/dry everything came from the freshwater world.

I have tried everything its impossible with C.I.T.E.S I can't import the rock and the "importers" I tried were fraudulent claims theres a place in NB that says it has walt smith fiji and its agrocrete with diatoms on it literally nothing else not a spec of coralline. I made 2 orders from another in manitoba that claims to have fresh imported rock. And the pic I attached is how it came packed. Covered in mold with scraps of dry mold covered newspaper. Funny thing is I paid for it to be shipped in water.

And lol that's hilarious seems like such old equipment now but I can see why its a big step up from fw equipment.

 

[HuduVudu]

I have tried everything its impossible with C.I.T.E.S I can't import the rock and the "importers" I tried were fraudulent claims theres a place in NB that says it has walt smith fiji and its agrocrete with diatoms on it literally nothing else not a spec of coralline. I made 2 orders from another in manitoba that claims to have fresh imported rock. And the pic I attached is how it came packed. Covered in mold with scraps of dry mold covered newspaper. Funny thing is I paid for it to be shipped in water.

And lol that's hilarious seems like such old equipment now but I can see why its a big step up from fw equipment.

Why won't they let the rock through? What is C.I.T.E.S?

Sorry about the crap importers. It's not fun being stolen from.

OMG that SDC box. I actually visited them in LA. Back then they were definitely garbage. My recent LFS was using them, doesn't seem like they have gotten much better.

 

[N.Sreefer]

Why won't they let the rock through? What is C.I.T.E.S?

Sorry about the crap importers. It's not fun being stolen from.

OMG that SDC box. I actually visited them in LA. Back then they were definitely garbage. My recent LFS was using them, doesn't seem like they have gotten much better.

Cites is the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora. Even animals that are legally traded or captive bred if on that list cannot be imported into Canada without a Cites permit which impossible to obtain if your not a large company or research institution. Even rock legally maricultured in the gulf, because they assume the species on it are cites controlled at the border and often one or more will be. They seize first and ask questions later.

Trade in protected species: international convention - Canada.ca

Home page of the canadian website for the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora.

www.canada.ca

Thanks , its an ongoing battle here and I would say they haven't! The fact that the rock was covered in mold, I am actually surprised I didn't get sick breathing the cloud that box released. Even if it didn't mold it was full of styrofoam I cant imagine sticking rock in a styrofoam box with next to no padding and expecting it to make the trip in acceptable shape . But ya live and learn eh?

 

[costaricareef]

We don't. We can just go by what people report. Much of the information on life spans comes from public aquariums. Those lifespans may be different in a home tank.

I come up with life spans just from experience but of course it is all conjecture or "an experienced" guess. But if even one fish reaches a certain age, we can "assume" that their age limit is at least that. The oldest person was about 120 so we know Humans can live at least that so if a Human dies at 50, they didn't die from old age. Especially if they got hit by a bus.

I have had tangs, coperbands, watchmans etc and it seems, to me at least that at about 10 years old, I start to have problems with them. Not communicable diseases many people talk about here but just a general wasting away just like a Human gets at old age. (I am old, so I know)

I have been keeping many different types of fish continuously for about 65 years so I have an understanding on some of their lifespans. But if you only have a tank for 8 or 9 years, you won't have any experience with that because the only fish we keep that have that short a lifespan are seahorses, pipefish and bangai cardinals which have the shortest lifespan of any fish we keep. About 4 years.

I wrote an an article about how to tell if a fish is dying of old age. If I can find it, I will post it.

These hermit crabs dies with in a week of each other and they were about 10 years old so we can assume they live at least that long.



This urchin is also about 10 or a little older. I still have him.


I still have this Janss pipefish and he is over 7 which I thought was past his lifespan.



This coperband got some weird neurological disease at about 10.



A pair of these fireclowns are almost 30 and still spawning. I don't know their life spans.



The male mandarin here, spawning was about 9

Amazing that you have been able to do this and kept all these species alive, well and reproducing for so long. Respect! Thanks for sharing. Very valuable information. Will check out your book.

 

[Paul B]

Knowing or reading some form of scientific paper that documents the average lifespan of the types of fish we keep would be very interesting reading. - if it exists.

I don't think you will find any specs on that. The hobby started in Germany but here in the US it started in 1971.
You could get some salt fish before that as I did but I had to collect them myself.

I doubt there are any scientists alive from then that studied ornamental fish and I don't know any one in the hobby besides me from then and certainly no researchers. There was also no fish farms so no one studied anything about fish except how to cook them.

If anyone did study fish life spans, it was in a public aquarium but that data would probably be different in a normal home tank.

I still have my Log book from when the hobby started. I kept it for maybe 20 years and I am amazed at the medications I used and how many fish I lost (killed)

 

[flourishofmediocrity]

I'm sorry, I just can't stay silent on this... after reading some of the things in this thread I just can't shake the feeling that this is bordering on animal abuse.

If this were a dog, and someone said to me: "Yeah, I just leave the fleas or worms on the dog because that's what happens in nature and its fine because I feed them a healthy diet"... there would NOT be a polite conversation after that, I would call the cops.

Can anyone with ACTUAL scientific knowledge explain how it's NOT animal abuse to passively allow a pet to have PARASITES and encourage others to follow suit?

EDIT: I'm a little frustrated about this, added worms

 

[Paul B]

And I think it's animal abuse if any of your fish die from anything except old age. I am also a little frustrated that you think immune fish have parasites.

 

[flourishofmediocrity]

And I think it's animal abuse if any of your fish die from anything except old age. I am also a little frustrated that you think immune fish have parasites.

@Paul B immunity is not an on/off switch. It is the ability to fight disease, but it does NOT guarantee the immune response will win. Ask a doctor.

EDIT: Let me also just say @Paul B I don't think you are committing animal abuse, and I don't dislike you at all, I find your perspective interesting. I just love animals and I don't want them to be harmed. I also don't want people who aren't in our hobby to see this stuff and draw the wrong conclusions.

 

[flourishofmediocrity]

Also, can anyone name any other pet where it is just generally accepted to let the pet live with parasites or disease if there is a way to eliminate the parasite or disease?

 

[N.Sreefer]

Also, can anyone name any other pet where it is just generally accepted to let the pet live with parasites or disease if there is a way to eliminate the parasite or disease?

Bees varro mite management only goes so far and theres some evidence to show natural methods to encourage grooming works better than oxalic acid vaporizers. All bees have ectoparasites its all about management not elimination. I think of my girls as my pets.

I am not sure what you mean by its not an on/off switch a wild caught fish has some acquired immunity because of exposure in the wild and the ensuing immune responses. And all fish are born with some measure of innate immunity. Nobody is saying its an on/off switch if you have fish that are healthy and fight off an initial infection they gain some measure of acquired immunity. And with ectoparasites you don't need a qt just cleaner shrimp/fish that's how fish manage ectoparasites in the wild.

 

[flourishofmediocrity]

Bees varro mite management only goes so far and theres some evidence to show natural methods to encourage grooming works better than oxalic acid vaporizers. All bees have ectoparasites its all about management not elimination. I think of my girls as my pets.

I am not sure what you mean by its not an on/off switch a wild caught fish has some acquired immunity because of exposure in the wild and the ensuing immune reactions. And all fish are born with some measure of innate immunity. Nobody is saying its an on/off switch if you have fish that are healthy and fight off an initial infection they gain some measure of acquired immunity. And with ectoparasites you don't need a qt just cleaner shrimp/fish that's how fish manage ectoparasites in the wild.

It's not an on/off switch because having immunity does not eliminate exposure, or the ability of the pathogen to do what it is going to do. A pathogen can still affect an organism that is immune to it, and can even overwhelm and kill a host that has immunity. Immunity is a numbers game. It's the immune system vs. the invading pathogen and if the pathogen has way more numbers than the immune system of the organism, the pathogen will likely win even if the organism is "immune".

EDIT: just to give an example, we as humans are constantly exposed to millions of pathogens all the time, but our immune system fights them off when they are in low numbers, but sometimes we are exposed to large numbers of pathogens all at once and our immune systems are overwhelmed and that's when we get sick.

 

[HuduVudu]

I'm sorry, I just can't stay silent on this... after reading some of the things in this thread I just can't shake the feeling that this is bordering on animal abuse.

And what is it that you are going to do about it. FYI authoritarinism doesn't work.

It is funny that you are saying this, but you are not doing anything about it. You are typical. You just come onto a board and yell about what you feel offer no feed back other than your feelings and then call your feelings science as proof. Perhaps you should put your money where your mouth is and go try to do something about it. Sadly even if you do that all you will end up doing is passing legislation to force everyone to your way of thinking.

If this were a dog, and someone said to me: "Yeah, I just leave the fleas or worms on the dog because that's what happens in nature and its fine because I feed them a healthy diet"... there would NOT be a polite conversation after that, I would call the cops.

You are myopic. You have no other way of doing anything other than your way because your way it seems will fit for everyone else. If you think that a person letting their animal have fleas is the worst offense, then go to the shelters in Feb and see what a Christmas puppy looks like. The other thing about you is that you paint the entirety of the human race with the broad brush of a few outliers. The vast majority of people want to have animals that are healthy and happy. They aren't evil. All you are doing is looking for a fight. My guess is that you would never do this in IRL, because the consequences would be severe.

I love that you advocate violence on those you disagree with. You are a real piece of work.

Can anyone with ACTUAL scientific knowledge explain how it's NOT animal abuse to passively allow a pet to have PARASITES and encourage others to follow suit?

My fish don't have parasites ... THEY ARE NOT SICK. They are healthy and happy. What you want is for your fish to be dead then they won't have any of the bad things that you say that they have. Puuuuhhhleese.