Yet another QT question

JayM

Well-Known Member
View Badges
Joined
Aug 8, 2023
Messages
922
Reaction score
1,199
Location
Inland Empire
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I currently have 2 small Dwarf Angels in QT. A Lemonpeel and a Flame. Both are about 1.5" in size, and are looking and acting healthy. No signs of aggression either (fingers crossed). They've been in the tank about 2 1/2 days with no meds. I'm getting ready to dose Coppersafe per the current QT protocol. My question is whether or not to go straight to 2.25ppm with the copper, or to ramp up slowly over a couple of days? I'm not seeing any current info on difficult to QT fish - particularly Dwarf Angels. And I suppose while I'm here, are they generally ok with the standard Prazipro protocol? I know they'll need good aeration, which I have covered already.

My last QT involved 6 fish that were infected with and/or exposed to ich, so they went straight into full strength copper, but I'm not sure any of them are considered to be particularly sensitive to copper treatment. Thankfully they all survived.
 

vetteguy53081

Well known Member and monster tank lover
View Badges
Joined
Aug 11, 2013
Messages
92,489
Reaction score
204,682
Location
Wisconsin -
Rating - 100%
14   0   0
I currently have 2 small Dwarf Angels in QT. A Lemonpeel and a Flame. Both are about 1.5" in size, and are looking and acting healthy. No signs of aggression either (fingers crossed). They've been in the tank about 2 1/2 days with no meds. I'm getting ready to dose Coppersafe per the current QT protocol. My question is whether or not to go straight to 2.25ppm with the copper, or to ramp up slowly over a couple of days? I'm not seeing any current info on difficult to QT fish - particularly Dwarf Angels. And I suppose while I'm here, are they generally ok with the standard Prazipro protocol? I know they'll need good aeration, which I have covered already.

My last QT involved 6 fish that were infected with and/or exposed to ich, so they went straight into full strength copper, but I'm not sure any of them are considered to be particularly sensitive to copper treatment. Thankfully they all survived.
Go straight to copper yes and 2.15-2.25 is perfect
Neither sensitive unless overdosed
Use a reliable copper test kit such as Hanna brand
 

Freenow54

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Mar 5, 2021
Messages
1,649
Reaction score
1,305
Location
Canada
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Go straight to copper yes and 2.15-2.25 is perfect
Neither sensitive unless overdosed
Use a reliable copper test kit such as Hanna brand
Not arguing at all. Is it a standard to treat with copper right away? What does it treat for?
 

MnFish1

10K Club member
View Badges
Joined
Dec 28, 2016
Messages
23,046
Reaction score
22,114
Location
Midwest
Rating - 100%
1   0   0
I currently have 2 small Dwarf Angels in QT. A Lemonpeel and a Flame. Both are about 1.5" in size, and are looking and acting healthy. No signs of aggression either (fingers crossed). They've been in the tank about 2 1/2 days with no meds. I'm getting ready to dose Coppersafe per the current QT protocol. My question is whether or not to go straight to 2.25ppm with the copper, or to ramp up slowly over a couple of days? I'm not seeing any current info on difficult to QT fish - particularly Dwarf Angels. And I suppose while I'm here, are they generally ok with the standard Prazipro protocol? I know they'll need good aeration, which I have covered already.

My last QT involved 6 fish that were infected with and/or exposed to ich, so they went straight into full strength copper, but I'm not sure any of them are considered to be particularly sensitive to copper treatment. Thankfully they all survived.
You can per the usual recommendation here go 'rapidly' up to 2.5 - however - I will say it differently. Slowly increasing copper in a quarantine situation is different than in a 'hospital tank' treatment. I would follow a slower copper ramp for quarantine - as compared to treatment (JMO)
 
OP
OP
JayM

JayM

Well-Known Member
View Badges
Joined
Aug 8, 2023
Messages
922
Reaction score
1,199
Location
Inland Empire
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Not arguing at all. Is it a standard to treat with copper right away? What does it treat for?
Treats Ich and Velvet. It's use may or may not be standard depending on whether or not you are in the camp that chooses to treat prophylactically or not. I was in the camp that did not do any sort of quarantine until disease wiped out half my tank. After dealing with that nightmare I've decided that quarantine for all new additions works better for me than not. I don't want any of my fish to die, but I'd rather risk a few at a time in QT vs. all of them in the display.
 
OP
OP
JayM

JayM

Well-Known Member
View Badges
Joined
Aug 8, 2023
Messages
922
Reaction score
1,199
Location
Inland Empire
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
You can per the usual recommendation here go 'rapidly' up to 2.5 - however - I will say it differently. Slowly increasing copper in a quarantine situation is different than in a 'hospital tank' treatment. I would follow a slower copper ramp for quarantine - as compared to treatment (JMO)
Slower ramp up as in 0 to therapeutic say within a few hours? A couple of days? My initial thoughts were to dose 50% in the evening after work, and an additional 50% in the a.m. before work. That way I'd have a few hours of observation to see how it goes before going full strength.
 

Jay Hemdal

10K Club member
View Badges
Joined
Jul 31, 2020
Messages
26,194
Reaction score
25,961
Location
Dundee, MI
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Slower ramp up as in 0 to therapeutic say within a few hours? A couple of days? My initial thoughts were to dose 50% in the evening after work, and an additional 50% in the a.m. before work. That way I'd have a few hours of observation to see how it goes before going full strength.

The only reason to ramp up coppersafe slowly is to ensure the dose is correct, and that you don't overshoot the mark. I add half a calculated dose, let it mix well and test the water. I then adjust the second dose to make it a 100% dose (2.25 ppm). I add that, then let it mix a few hours and test again, just to be certain i hit the mark.

The two angels aren't fighting with each other?
 
OP
OP
JayM

JayM

Well-Known Member
View Badges
Joined
Aug 8, 2023
Messages
922
Reaction score
1,199
Location
Inland Empire
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
The only reason to ramp up coppersafe slowly is to ensure the dose is correct, and that you don't overshoot the mark. I add half a calculated dose, let it mix well and test the water. I then adjust the second dose to make it a 100% dose (2.25 ppm). I add that, then let it mix a few hours and test again, just to be certain i hit the mark.
Sounds reasonable.
The two angels aren't fighting with each other?
They aren’t. I’m somewhat surprised, yet extremely happy as well. Fingers crossed that they continue to get along so that I don’t need to go to the back up plan.
 

Skep18

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Feb 3, 2018
Messages
1,097
Reaction score
852
Location
Southeast US
Rating - 100%
1   0   0
My 2 cents, I see no harm in ramping copper levels over time versus going straight to therapeutic levels in one dose. If you feel better about an extended dosing period and fish are not showing signs of disease, it will not do any harm. Just note, you cannot start the treatment timeline until you reach your desired therapeutic levels.

I've done both. I tend to dosed half the required dosage with some unimportant time period in between like one dose in the AM and one in the PM. That said, I've never seen stressed fish from providing the full dose at once so I'm not sure it matters.
 

Jay Hemdal

10K Club member
View Badges
Joined
Jul 31, 2020
Messages
26,194
Reaction score
25,961
Location
Dundee, MI
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
My 2 cents, I see no harm in ramping copper levels over time versus going straight to therapeutic levels in one dose. If you feel better about an extended dosing period and fish are not showing signs of disease, it will not do any harm. Just note, you cannot start the treatment timeline until you reach your desired therapeutic levels.

I've done both. I tend to dosed half the required dosage with some unimportant time period in between like one dose in the AM and one in the PM. That said, I've never seen stressed fish from providing the full dose at once so I'm not sure it matters.
The risk is huge when there is an active infection. Amine chelated copper products are mild, but are slow to work and don’t have any benefit until the dose is greater than 2 ppm. Even then it takes up to 3 days for it to work - by then, the fish may be dead.

The original “slow ramp up” was for ionic copper, and was prescribed as “48 hours”.

People took that and figured even slower must be better (grin).
 

Skep18

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Feb 3, 2018
Messages
1,097
Reaction score
852
Location
Southeast US
Rating - 100%
1   0   0
The risk is huge when there is an active infection. Amine chelated copper products are mild, but are slow to work and don’t have any benefit until the dose is greater than 2 ppm. Even then it takes up to 3 days for it to work - by then, the fish may be dead.

The original “slow ramp up” was for ionic copper, and was prescribed as “48 hours”.

People took that and figured even slower must be better (grin).
If you see any signs of an active infection, of course get them in the proper copper range as soon as possible. I could also see people taking the position despite no signs, there could be a lingering infection and thus get in proper levels asap. That said, my preference, possibly unfounded, is to be sensitive to fish stress. Sudden changes to me could seem to induce such stress and might be able to be avoided. That said, I'm sure others will disagree.
 
OP
OP
JayM

JayM

Well-Known Member
View Badges
Joined
Aug 8, 2023
Messages
922
Reaction score
1,199
Location
Inland Empire
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
FWIW, I dosed 10mL Coppersafe into QT (10gal), let circulate for 30 minutes and it got me to 1.55ppm. Added another 4mL dose and brought me up to 2.21ppm. All within the course of about 45 minutes. I'll check again tonight to make sure it's stable. I've got 5 gallons set aside for W/C pre mixed at 2.3.
 

vetteguy53081

Well known Member and monster tank lover
View Badges
Joined
Aug 11, 2013
Messages
92,489
Reaction score
204,682
Location
Wisconsin -
Rating - 100%
14   0   0
Not arguing at all. Is it a standard to treat with copper right away? What does it treat for?
Generally yes as you want to eliminate disease up front. Copper will eliminate protozoans,,,,, ich, velvet, etc
FWIW, I dosed 10mL Coppersafe into QT (10gal), let circulate for 30 minutes and it got me to 1.55ppm. Added another 4mL dose and brought me up to 2.21ppm. All within the course of about 45 minutes. I'll check again tonight to make sure it's stable. I've got 5 gallons set aside for W/C pre mixed at 2.3.
test, dont guess
 
OP
OP
JayM

JayM

Well-Known Member
View Badges
Joined
Aug 8, 2023
Messages
922
Reaction score
1,199
Location
Inland Empire
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Generally yes as you want to eliminate disease up front. Copper will eliminate protozoans,,,,, ich, velvet, etc

test, dont guess
No guessing.
IMG_5137.jpeg

IMG_5138.jpeg
 

vetteguy53081

Well known Member and monster tank lover
View Badges
Joined
Aug 11, 2013
Messages
92,489
Reaction score
204,682
Location
Wisconsin -
Rating - 100%
14   0   0
OP
OP
JayM

JayM

Well-Known Member
View Badges
Joined
Aug 8, 2023
Messages
922
Reaction score
1,199
Location
Inland Empire
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Lemonpeel and Flame in Coppersafe about a week now. 2.29ppm as of about 15 minutes ago. Everything seems good as far as eating, swimming, aggression, etc. However, I just noticed the Lemonpeel has, for lack of a better term, “ruffled” scales on the left side. I can’t say for certain that there isn’t anything similar on the right, but it doesn’t look like there is. First good view is around the 13-14 second mark. Flame Angel appears 100% normal. Does this look like anything to be concerned with?

#fishmedic

 

Jay Hemdal

10K Club member
View Badges
Joined
Jul 31, 2020
Messages
26,194
Reaction score
25,961
Location
Dundee, MI
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Lemonpeel and Flame in Coppersafe about a week now. 2.29ppm as of about 15 minutes ago. Everything seems good as far as eating, swimming, aggression, etc. However, I just noticed the Lemonpeel has, for lack of a better term, “ruffled” scales on the left side. I can’t say for certain that there isn’t anything similar on the right, but it doesn’t look like there is. First good view is around the 13-14 second mark. Flame Angel appears 100% normal. Does this look like anything to be concerned with?

#fishmedic



Those may be Neobenedenia flukes. You usually cannot see those on a fish, but sometimes, with a side view, you can see their outlines. However, these flukes more typically cause problems on both sides of the fish and even more commonly, on its eyes, and I don't see that.

You should follow the copper treatment with a praziquantel treatment, so that should help.....
 
OP
OP
JayM

JayM

Well-Known Member
View Badges
Joined
Aug 8, 2023
Messages
922
Reaction score
1,199
Location
Inland Empire
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Those may be Neobenedenia flukes. You usually cannot see those on a fish, but sometimes, with a side view, you can see their outlines. However, these flukes more typically cause problems on both sides of the fish and even more commonly, on its eyes, and I don't see that.

You should follow the copper treatment with a praziquantel treatment, so that should help.....
I took a quick look this morning and the Lemonpeel looks better, but it was just with a small flashlight so I'm not sure. I'll take a better look this afternoon once the lights come on to be sure.

I planned for Prazi after the copper treatment is done, but I've got about 3 weeks to go still. I'm thinking I should monitor and hold off on dosing both concurrently if it doesn't spread or start causing other symptoms. Does that sound reasonable? Or should I start Prazi now? I know flukes aren't good, but also not necessarily a death sentence.
 

Making aqua concoctions: Have you ever tried the Reef Moonshiner Method?

  • I currently use the moonshiner method.

    Votes: 38 19.8%
  • I don’t currently use the moonshiner method, but I have in the past.

    Votes: 3 1.6%
  • I have not used the moonshiner method.

    Votes: 142 74.0%
  • Other.

    Votes: 9 4.7%
Back
Top