Humu Humu Trigger QT Failure Twice in Two Months

[kboogie]

I've lost two Humu Humu Triggers during QT in the last two months, and I'm lost as to what is happening. I do a sped-up version of Jay Hemdal's Quarantine Protocol. The thing I do to accelerate the process is administer the three Prazi treatments during the 30-day CopperSafe treatment. I continuously run additional aeration and closely monitor the fish, so it has been very successful.

In my last two batches of fish I've run through QT, both batches included a Humu Humu Trigger. My wife is from Hawaii, and I wanted her to have the state fish in our 300G FOWLR. The first batch contained a Lemon Peel Angel, Flame Angel, 3.5" Hippo Tang, and a tiny 1" Humu Humu Trigger. The Humu Humu ate mysis, pacific plankton, and omega-3 enriched brine shrimp very well and made a home out af a rock that happened to be hollow with a hole big enough for him. After about two weeks in CopperSafe at 2.5 ppm he went into his hole, and two days later, he was dead on the gravel bed. All the other fish in that batch survived the full 39 days of QT, which involved copper that never dropped below 2.25 and never exceeded 2.64 ppm, as well as four Prazi treatments 0.284 mg each expressed into the aquarium via a reef diaper with each treatment spaced 7 days apart. Nitrates never got about 15 ppm, temperature is controlled by a chiller and stays between 76.8 and 77.4. No ammonia or nitrite because I have a permanent cycled setup for QT.

The second batch contained a Coral Beauty Angel, a tiny Clown Trigger, and a small Humu Humu that was a little bigger than 1.5". After about two weeks in CopperSafe at 2.5 ppm he went into his hole, and two days later, he was dead stuck in the hole. Like with the other Humu Humu he ate great was active and all of a sudden died. Also, like with the other Humu Humu the other fish are doing great.

This experience has me wondering if one of two things are true: 1) Are Humu Humu Triggers more sensitive to CopperSafe than I know? 2) Are small Humu Humu Triggers caught with cyanide and fall victim to it much the same way Harliquen Tusk do?

This is baffling, I do plan on trying it again soon and this time I'm going to solo QT in a seperate QT aquarium the Humu Humu to see what happens. I just need to get my QT Hotel System setup.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I've lost two Humu Humu Triggers during QT in the last two months, and I'm lost as to what is happening. I do a sped-up version of Jay Hemdal's Quarantine Protocol. The thing I do to accelerate the process is administer the three Prazi treatments during the 30-day CopperSafe treatment. I continuously run additional aeration and closely monitor the fish, so it has been very successful.

In my last two batches of fish I've run through QT, both batches included a Humu Humu Trigger. My wife is from Hawaii, and I wanted her to have the state fish in our 300G FOWLR. The first batch contained a Lemon Peel Angel, Flame Angel, 3.5" Hippo Tang, and a tiny 1" Humu Humu Trigger. The Humu Humu ate mysis, pacific plankton, and omega-3 enriched brine shrimp very well and made a home out af a rock that happened to be hollow with a hole big enough for him. After about two weeks in CopperSafe at 2.5 ppm he went into his hole, and two days later, he was dead on the gravel bed. All the other fish in that batch survived the full 39 days of QT, which involved copper that never dropped below 2.25 and never exceeded 2.64 ppm, as well as four Prazi treatments 0.284 mg each expressed into the aquarium via a reef diaper with each treatment spaced 7 days apart. Nitrates never got about 15 ppm, temperature is controlled by a chiller and stays between 76.8 and 77.4. No ammonia or nitrite because I have a permanent cycled setup for QT.

The second batch contained a Coral Beauty Angel, a tiny Clown Trigger, and a small Humu Humu that was a little bigger than 1.5". After about two weeks in CopperSafe at 2.5 ppm he went into his hole, and two days later, he was dead stuck in the hole. Like with the other Humu Humu he ate great was active and all of a sudden died. Also, like with the other Humu Humu the other fish are doing great.

This experience has me wondering if one of two things are true: 1) Are Humu Humu Triggers more sensitive to CopperSafe than I know? 2) Are small Humu Humu Triggers caught with cyanide and fall victim to it much the same way Harliquen Tusk do?

This is baffling, I do plan on trying it again soon and this time I'm going to solo QT in a seperate QT aquarium the Humu Humu to see what happens. I just need to get my QT Hotel System setup.

Nothing works fast in saltwater and I dont recommend mixing anything with copper products. While you can add prazi with coppersafe, you want to reduce amount from full dosage when mixed and add an air stone as prazi reduces oxygen.
I also recommend coppersafe at 2.25ppm . Best would be to do coppersafe only, remove/reduce copper to <1.0ppm then do prazi treatment at two applications 8 days apart

 

[Seansea]

Why are you adding the prazi and coppersafe? I dont ever add this unless the fish look sick. The other thing i do is keeping a permanent qt tank going with mollys to keep it cycled. Simple set up with hob filter and heater. Keep.somewhere it doesnt matter like a room that doesnt get alot of use or is hidden like a basement or fish room

 

[kboogie]

I've lost two Humu Humu Triggers during QT in the last two months, and I'm lost as to what is happening. I do a sped-up version of Jay Hemdal's Quarantine Protocol. The thing I do to accelerate the process is administer the three Prazi treatments during the 30-day CopperSafe treatment. I continuously run additional aeration and closely monitor the fish, so it has been very successful.

In my last two batches of fish I've run through QT, both batches included a Humu Humu Trigger. My wife is from Hawaii, and I wanted her to have the state fish in our 300G FOWLR. The first batch contained a Lemon Peel Angel, Flame Angel, 3.5" Hippo Tang, and a tiny 1" Humu Humu Trigger. The Humu Humu ate mysis, pacific plankton, and omega-3 enriched brine shrimp very well and made a home out af a rock that happened to be hollow with a hole big enough for him. After about two weeks in CopperSafe at 2.5 ppm he went into his hole, and two days later, he was dead on the gravel bed. All the other fish in that batch survived the full 39 days of QT, which involved copper that never dropped below 2.25 and never exceeded 2.64 ppm, as well as four Prazi treatments 0.284 mg each expressed into the aquarium via a reef diaper with each treatment spaced 7 days apart. Nitrates never got about 15 ppm, temperature is controlled by a chiller and stays between 76.8 and 77.4. No ammonia or nitrite because I have a permanent cycled setup for QT.

The second batch contained a Coral Beauty Angel, a tiny Clown Trigger, and a small Humu Humu that was a little bigger than 1.5". After about two weeks in CopperSafe at 2.5 ppm he went into his hole, and two days later, he was dead stuck in the hole. Like with the other Humu Humu he ate great was active and all of a sudden died. Also, like with the other Humu Humu the other fish are doing great.

This experience has me wondering if one of two things are true: 1) Are Humu Humu Triggers more sensitive to CopperSafe than I know? 2) Are small Humu Humu Triggers caught with cyanide and fall victim to it much the same way Harliquen Tusk do?

This is baffling, I do plan on trying it again soon and this time I'm going to solo QT in a seperate QT aquarium the Humu Humu to see what happens. I just need to get my QT Hotel System setup.

Nothing works fast in saltwater and I dont recommend mixing anything with copper products. While you can add prazi with coppersafe, you want to reduce amount from full dosage when mixed and add an air stone as prazi reduces oxygen.
I also recommend coppersafe at 2.25ppm . Best would be to do coppersafe only, remove/reduce copper to <1.0ppm then do prazi treatment at two applications 8 days apart

Good points. I’ve been having a great deal of success with the modified method.

I didn’t mention, but I always run an air stone with the Prazi.

I also didn’t make it clear that the second Humu died for the first Prazi treatment.

 

[kboogie]

Why are you adding the prazi and coppersafe? I dont ever add this unless the fish look sick. The other thing i do is keeping a permanent qt tank going with mollys to keep it cycled. Simple set up with hob filter and heater. Keep.somewhere it doesnt matter like a room that doesnt get alot of use or is hidden like a basement or fish room

I apologize, I’m not understanding your question with regards to adding medications. The purpose of a medicated QT is to prophylactically treat the fish for the most common and most trouble some pathogens to ensure they do not enter your display tank. I’m practicing ich eradication not ich management. It is important to remember that a fish that “doesn’t look sick” can still carry pathogens that will infect your DT.

I’m so glad I follow this process because it has dramatically increased my success rate and the health of the fish in my DT. Small things no long cause ich outbreaks in my DT. I no longer lose thousands of dollars of fish to velvet.

 

[W31Olds]

I think Jay H. has compiled a list of fish frequently caught using cyanide. If you plan on getting a third Huma Huma, you may want to setup a small QT Tank and just do Observation until the fish is settled in and then minimal theraputic copper followed by the Prazi.

 

[MnFish1]

I've lost two Humu Humu Triggers during QT in the last two months, and I'm lost as to what is happening. I do a sped-up version of Jay Hemdal's Quarantine Protocol. The thing I do to accelerate the process is administer the three Prazi treatments during the 30-day CopperSafe treatment. I continuously run additional aeration and closely monitor the fish, so it has been very successful.

I would not routinely do this - as certain fish (maybe your Huma) may be more sensitive to both together. Second, if they are having a reaction to 'a medicine' - when you add 2 together, you can't tell which one may be causing a problem. One exception is when a fish is very sick with both flukes and another illness (then I recommend adding prazipro to the copper.

In my last two batches of fish I've run through QT, both batches included a Humu Humu Trigger. My wife is from Hawaii, and I wanted her to have the state fish in our 300G FOWLR. The first batch contained a Lemon Peel Angel, Flame Angel, 3.5" Hippo Tang, and a tiny 1" Humu Humu Trigger. The Humu Humu ate mysis, pacific plankton, and omega-3 enriched brine shrimp very well and made a home out af a rock that happened to be hollow with a hole big enough for him.

Curious - did you add your medication to the display - or a separate QT tank. Or did you have live rock in the QT? If you added it to the display or a tank with a lot of rock your medication levels may not have been correct.

After about two weeks in CopperSafe at 2.5 ppm he went into his hole, and two days later, he was dead on the gravel bed. All the other fish in that batch survived the full 39 days of QT, which involved copper that never dropped below 2.25 and never exceeded 2.64 ppm, as well as four Prazi treatments 0.284 mg each expressed into the aquarium via a reef diaper with each treatment spaced 7 days apart. Nitrates never got about 15 ppm, temperature is controlled by a chiller and stays between 76.8 and 77.4. No ammonia or nitrite because I have a permanent cycled setup for QT.

The second batch contained a Coral Beauty Angel, a tiny Clown Trigger, and a small Humu Humu that was a little bigger than 1.5". After about two weeks in CopperSafe at 2.5 ppm he went into his hole, and two days later, he was dead stuck in the hole. Like with the other Humu Humu he ate great was active and all of a sudden died. Also, like with the other Humu Humu the other fish are doing great.

This experience has me wondering if one of two things are true: 1) Are Humu Humu Triggers more sensitive to CopperSafe than I know? 2) Are small Humu Humu Triggers caught with cyanide and fall victim to it much the same way Harliquen Tusk do?

I think small fish are more likely to have problems than larger ones. Additionally, the problem you're having suggests a possible collection problem or toxin (like cyanide). The fact that all of the other fish are 'fine' goes against disease.

This is baffling, I do plan on trying it again soon and this time I'm going to solo QT in a seperate QT aquarium the Humu Humu to see what happens. I just need to get my QT Hotel System setup.

AH - so this does suggest you did the QT in your display - I didn't see it. Another recommendation would be to get a fish locally that you can see in a store. Pay for it - and let them keep it. for 2-4 weeks - so at least you know it's healthy.

 

[kboogie]

I would not routinely do this - as certain fish (maybe your Huma) may be more sensitive to both together. Second, if they are having a reaction to 'a medicine' - when you add 2 together, you can't tell which one may be causing a problem. One exception is when a fish is very sick with both flukes and another illness (then I recommend adding prazipro to the copper.

I'm sorry. I failed to mention in my original post that the second Humu Humu died before the first Prazi treatment. I did a ton of research and consulted the board experts. It was concluded that ideally, for the avoidance of a remote issue, Copper and Prazi should be doses separately, but so long as I aerate and monitor closely, I should not have a problem because these to medications do not have known interactions unlike others, which has been my experience so far including here where Prazi wasn't dosed with the second Humu Humu.

Curious - did you add your medication to the display - or a separate QT tank. Or did you have live rock in the QT? If you added it to the display or a tank with a lot of rock your medication levels may not have been correct.

I think small fish are more likely to have problems than larger ones. Additionally, the problem you're having suggests a possible collection problem or toxin (like cyanide). The fact that all of the other fish are 'fine' goes against disease.

AH - so this does suggest you did the QT in your display - I didn't see it. Another recommendation would be to get a fish locally that you can see in a store. Pay for it - and let them keep it. for 2-4 weeks - so at least you know it's healthy.

This was in my separate QT tank and not my DT. I use an old Redsea 130D for QT, it has substrate and some live rock. The main reason the "ideal QT setup" doesn't have substrate or rock is because rocks absorbs medications like copper (which is the only one which is relevate to my QT process) and I test my copper every three days with a Hanna Checker to ensure my levels stay between 2.25 ppm and 2.65 ppm (which can happen after the initial dose, higher than 2.65 I do a small water change). Like with many things, so long as you know what to manage, then using an alternative process is acceptable. I do appreciate that you think about the details of an ideal process.

I hear you regarding the local fish store. The second Humu Humu was from a local store, but it certainly wasn't there for weeks.

The biggest thing I'm trying to figure out, given literally all the other fish in the same batches were fine and some of them are arguablly more sensitive to medications than what I believe the Humu Humu to be, what is special about Humu Humu Triggers, if anything? For example, while most Centropyges can tolerate copper, Mulicolor Angels are sensitive to copper. I was wondering if I may have missed that Humu Humu's are sensitive to copper or something similar.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

I've lost two Humu Humu Triggers during QT in the last two months, and I'm lost as to what is happening. I do a sped-up version of Jay Hemdal's Quarantine Protocol. The thing I do to accelerate the process is administer the three Prazi treatments during the 30-day CopperSafe treatment. I continuously run additional aeration and closely monitor the fish, so it has been very successful.

In my last two batches of fish I've run through QT, both batches included a Humu Humu Trigger. My wife is from Hawaii, and I wanted her to have the state fish in our 300G FOWLR. The first batch contained a Lemon Peel Angel, Flame Angel, 3.5" Hippo Tang, and a tiny 1" Humu Humu Trigger. The Humu Humu ate mysis, pacific plankton, and omega-3 enriched brine shrimp very well and made a home out af a rock that happened to be hollow with a hole big enough for him. After about two weeks in CopperSafe at 2.5 ppm he went into his hole, and two days later, he was dead on the gravel bed. All the other fish in that batch survived the full 39 days of QT, which involved copper that never dropped below 2.25 and never exceeded 2.64 ppm, as well as four Prazi treatments 0.284 mg each expressed into the aquarium via a reef diaper with each treatment spaced 7 days apart. Nitrates never got about 15 ppm, temperature is controlled by a chiller and stays between 76.8 and 77.4. No ammonia or nitrite because I have a permanent cycled setup for QT.

The second batch contained a Coral Beauty Angel, a tiny Clown Trigger, and a small Humu Humu that was a little bigger than 1.5". After about two weeks in CopperSafe at 2.5 ppm he went into his hole, and two days later, he was dead stuck in the hole. Like with the other Humu Humu he ate great was active and all of a sudden died. Also, like with the other Humu Humu the other fish are doing great.

This experience has me wondering if one of two things are true: 1) Are Humu Humu Triggers more sensitive to CopperSafe than I know? 2) Are small Humu Humu Triggers caught with cyanide and fall victim to it much the same way Harliquen Tusk do?

This is baffling, I do plan on trying it again soon and this time I'm going to solo QT in a seperate QT aquarium the Humu Humu to see what happens. I just need to get my QT Hotel System setup.

Both triggers that died had no signs of external damage?

Triggerfish are overall fine with copper and prazi, but doing both at the same time is inherently a bit more risky. It sounds like you are using prazi powder, so that is safer than Prazipro, if used with copper at the same time. Of the fish you've run through your process, the flame angel would be at the top of my list of fish that might run into issues. The baby clown trigger is still doing well? Those are usually caught with cyanide, so there is often some losses from that issue.

The current source of humu humu is a bit of an enigma - back when Hawaii was open to collecting, they were pretty much bullet proof. I don't know where they are coming from now. They could be caught with cyanide, depends on their origin. The eating and then dying for no apparent reason is really common with baby clown triggers caught with cyanide, I just don't have much experience with non-Hawaiian Humu humu. Baby triggers of all species are pretty secretive, and collecting them with hand nets is tough....

Here is my article on sourcing marine fish, but it isn't always clear at the retail level, where your fish may hail from:

https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/sourcing-marine-fishes-and-invertebrates.875/

 

[kboogie]

I've lost two Humu Humu Triggers during QT in the last two months, and I'm lost as to what is happening. I do a sped-up version of Jay Hemdal's Quarantine Protocol. The thing I do to accelerate the process is administer the three Prazi treatments during the 30-day CopperSafe treatment. I continuously run additional aeration and closely monitor the fish, so it has been very successful.

In my last two batches of fish I've run through QT, both batches included a Humu Humu Trigger. My wife is from Hawaii, and I wanted her to have the state fish in our 300G FOWLR. The first batch contained a Lemon Peel Angel, Flame Angel, 3.5" Hippo Tang, and a tiny 1" Humu Humu Trigger. The Humu Humu ate mysis, pacific plankton, and omega-3 enriched brine shrimp very well and made a home out af a rock that happened to be hollow with a hole big enough for him. After about two weeks in CopperSafe at 2.5 ppm he went into his hole, and two days later, he was dead on the gravel bed. All the other fish in that batch survived the full 39 days of QT, which involved copper that never dropped below 2.25 and never exceeded 2.64 ppm, as well as four Prazi treatments 0.284 mg each expressed into the aquarium via a reef diaper with each treatment spaced 7 days apart. Nitrates never got about 15 ppm, temperature is controlled by a chiller and stays between 76.8 and 77.4. No ammonia or nitrite because I have a permanent cycled setup for QT.

The second batch contained a Coral Beauty Angel, a tiny Clown Trigger, and a small Humu Humu that was a little bigger than 1.5". After about two weeks in CopperSafe at 2.5 ppm he went into his hole, and two days later, he was dead stuck in the hole. Like with the other Humu Humu he ate great was active and all of a sudden died. Also, like with the other Humu Humu the other fish are doing great.

This experience has me wondering if one of two things are true: 1) Are Humu Humu Triggers more sensitive to CopperSafe than I know? 2) Are small Humu Humu Triggers caught with cyanide and fall victim to it much the same way Harliquen Tusk do?

This is baffling, I do plan on trying it again soon and this time I'm going to solo QT in a seperate QT aquarium the Humu Humu to see what happens. I just need to get my QT Hotel System setup.

Both triggers that died had no signs of external damage?

Triggerfish are overall fine with copper and prazi, but doing both at the same time is inherently a bit more risky. It sounds like you are using prazi powder, so that is safer than Prazipro, if used with copper at the same time. Of the fish you've run through your process, the flame angel would be at the top of my list of fish that might run into issues. The baby clown trigger is still doing well? Those are usually caught with cyanide, so there is often some losses from that issue.

The current source of humu humu is a bit of an enigma - back when Hawaii was open to collecting, they were pretty much bullet proof. I don't know where they are coming from now. They could be caught with cyanide, depends on their origin. The eating and then dying for no apparent reason is really common with baby clown triggers caught with cyanide, I just don't have much experience with non-Hawaiian Humu humu. Baby triggers of all species are pretty secretive, and collecting them with hand nets is tough....

Here is my article on sourcing marine fish, but it isn't always clear at the retail level, where your fish may hail from:

https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/sourcing-marine-fishes-and-invertebrates.875/

I saw no sign of external damage. I was able to get a picture of the the first Humu Humu.

Unfortunately, I don’t have a picture of the second Humu Humu but there was no external damage. I thought maybe a bristle worm in the rock but I can’t imagine a bristle worm surviving 11 months of copper and Prazi (pure powder) dosing.

Based on your feedback I’m going to assume cyanide induced sudden death. If we don’t have a term for this we should.

In the ‘90s we used to use methylene blue for oxygen deprivation and poison treatment of fish. I wondered if a methylene blue treatment would reduce death from cyanide. I’ll see if anyone has done the testing.

 

[MnFish1]

I'm sorry. I failed to mention in my original post that the second Humu Humu died before the first Prazi treatment. I did a ton of research and consulted the board experts. It was concluded that ideally, for the avoidance of a remote issue, Copper and Prazi should be doses separately, but so long as I aerate and monitor closely, I should not have a problem because these to medications do not have known interactions unlike others, which has been my experience so far including here where Prazi wasn't dosed with the second Humu Humu.


This was in my separate QT tank and not my DT. I use an old Redsea 130D for QT, it has substrate and some live rock. The main reason the "ideal QT setup" doesn't have substrate or rock is because rocks absorbs medications like copper (which is the only one which is relevate to my QT process) and I test my copper every three days with a Hanna Checker to ensure my levels stay between 2.25 ppm and 2.65 ppm (which can happen after the initial dose, higher than 2.65 I do a small water change). Like with many things, so long as you know what to manage, then using an alternative process is acceptable. I do appreciate that you think about the details of an ideal process.

I hear you regarding the local fish store. The second Humu Humu was from a local store, but it certainly wasn't there for weeks.

The biggest thing I'm trying to figure out, given literally all the other fish in the same batches were fine and some of them are arguablly more sensitive to medications than what I believe the Humu Humu to be, what is special about Humu Humu Triggers, if anything? For example, while most Centropyges can tolerate copper, Mulicolor Angels are sensitive to copper. I was wondering if I may have missed that Humu Humu's are sensitive to copper or something similar.

Yes - and younger small fish are more sensitive - in general to any of them. If I were doing a QT in a tank with live rock - I. would be checking the levels daily. 1. Because if you've done this before in this tank, the copper level can trend too high - if it's adsorbing it can drop. So for example lets say you do a dose and you get 2.5 ppm copper. Then over the next day some copper is leached from the rock - you have a level thats too high. Vice versa as well. It might well be overkill but if I had this issue - I would do it. Additionally with 'baby' smaller fish I would use a lower dose - and unless only absolutely necessary mix 2 medications. Hope this helps and thanks for the updated information

 

[kboogie]

Yes - and younger small fish are more sensitive - in general to any of them. If I were doing a QT in a tank with live rock - I. would be checking the levels daily. 1. Because if you've done this before in this tank, the copper level can trend too high - if it's adsorbing it can drop. So for example lets say you do a dose and you get 2.5 ppm copper. Then over the next day some copper is leached from the rock - you have a level thats too high. Vice versa as well. It might well be overkill but if I had this issue - I would do it. Additionally with 'baby' smaller fish I would use a lower dose - and unless only absolutely necessary mix 2 medications. Hope this helps and thanks for the updated information

Doing less with the small fish is an insightful item.

Fortunately, I'm at the point where my rock is still absorbing and not leaching. It is absorbing copper at a very low rate. I lose about 0.08 to 0.11 ppm of copper per week.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

I saw no sign of external damage. I was able to get a picture of the the first Humu Humu.

Unfortunately, I don’t have a picture of the second Humu Humu but there was no external damage. I thought maybe a bristle worm in the rock but I can’t imagine a bristle worm surviving 11 months of copper and Prazi (pure powder) dosing.

Based on your feedback I’m going to assume cyanide induced sudden death. If we don’t have a term for this we should.

In the ‘90s we used to use methylene blue for oxygen deprivation and poison treatment of fish. I wondered if a methylene blue treatment would reduce death from cyanide. I’ll see if anyone has done the testing.

Methylene blue is used to combat acute cyanide poisoning in humans, but it just doesn't work for chronic cyanide poisoning in fish. By the time these fish have died, the cyanide has already been decomposed and MB just doesn't work. What happens is that the cyanide causes organ damage in the fish that then causes death weeks later (to about 40 days post-collection). I've done three studies over many years and the mortality rate for fish known to have been collected with cyanide runs about 50% over 3 to 4 months. Now, we don't know how your fish were collected, but that is still a possible issue.

Copper safe and copper power are very mild - I've had bristle worms survive that, as well as many "pods". It will kill snails, sea stars and corals pretty fast though.

 

[BryanM]

I hear you regarding the local fish store. The second Humu Humu was from a local store, but it certainly wasn't there for weeks.

I do this, only at one fish store, and I just wait for 2-3 weeks before I'll buy the fish. I hear horror stories with fish even coming in same day and being sold that day.... I can't imagine the stress involved.

 

[kboogie]

Both triggers that died had no signs of external damage?

Triggerfish are overall fine with copper and prazi, but doing both at the same time is inherently a bit more risky. It sounds like you are using prazi powder, so that is safer than Prazipro, if used with copper at the same time. Of the fish you've run through your process, the flame angel would be at the top of my list of fish that might run into issues. The baby clown trigger is still doing well? Those are usually caught with cyanide, so there is often some losses from that issue.

The current source of humu humu is a bit of an enigma - back when Hawaii was open to collecting, they were pretty much bullet proof. I don't know where they are coming from now. They could be caught with cyanide, depends on their origin. The eating and then dying for no apparent reason is really common with baby clown triggers caught with cyanide, I just don't have much experience with non-Hawaiian Humu humu. Baby triggers of all species are pretty secretive, and collecting them with hand nets is tough....

Here is my article on sourcing marine fish, but it isn't always clear at the retail level, where your fish may hail from:

https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/sourcing-marine-fishes-and-invertebrates.875/

---I accidentally posted this under the wrong thread. I'm re-posting here in the intended location----

I noticed no rapid breathing, or I should say "abnormal change in breathing", they would get startled at first then calm down. I spend between 45 minutes and 1.5 hours per day with my QT setup. I closely observe for signs of stress or non-parasitic infection, which could require augmented treatment (e.g. Kanaplex or Metro). I pay attention to the amount they eat and what they eat to determine if they are staying nourished. I love my fish, so I admire them and count the days before they end up in my DT, where I can watch them for 16 hours a day from my desk in my home office.

I do notice the Humu Humu's were both more skiddish than any of the other fish. My Clown Trigger, which is smaller than the Humu Humu that just died, is much more bold. He is out and about. As soon as the indirect sunlight hits the tank in the morning, the Clown Trigger roams around. The Humu Humu would eventually come out but roamed less and hid under a ledge when people were about, unless it was feeding time, then he was gobbling up the mysis and the plankton. I also would drop a 5mm -ish piece of krill to allow their jaws to get a workout. Neither Humu Humu ate to the point where they got the overfilled look that is common after feeding a large quantity of food to triggers and file fish. It was just so strange to me that over the fish that were lost, they just both happened to be the exact same species.

Since starting the medicated QT process last year, I've lost several fish in QT, but there has always been a really good explanation for the loss. My fish losses during QT since November are as follows:

1) 9 Bimac anthis (a batch of 4 and another of 5), two were killed from fighting, five were lost to air bladder issues, and two never ate.
2) A Juvenile Regal Angel, killed by a much larger Blueface (my mistake, I didn't catch it in time)
3) An adult Regal Angel, never ate and had internal issues (I was extra bummed about this one)
4) Adult Majestic Angel, never ate
5) Adult Aussie Tusk, arrived upside down, recovered, ate great, died suddenly after 19 days
6) Juvi Aussie Tusk, ate great, died suddenly after about 14 days, felt like cyanide.
7) The two Humu Humu Triggers discussed in this post

I'm going to give it another show soon, and I'm going to go with a slightly larger Humu Humu (2"-3") and do the QT in my starter hotel system (two 5.5-gallon bare tanks and one 20-gallon long bare tank). That's not fully set up, but I can do one of the 5.5-gallon tanks in the guest room downstairs while I get the racks built for the hotel!

 

[kboogie]

Update on my QT progress. Last night, before lights out on the QT tank, I saw that my Clown Trigger went into the infamous rock. I shook the rock to get him out and even put it up against the pump return to encourage him out. After putting the rock down, he came out, and I literally threw the rock away.

Now, as of this morning, the Clown Trigger went from being a very energetic eater to having no interest in food. He is hiding all the time. His QT tankmate, the Coral Beauty, is doing great! The Coral Beauty ate like always and is very active. I got a glimpse of the Clown Trigger and now signs of illness other than the lympho that is on his anal fin, which has been there since he arrived (bad online vendor, I'm not naming names, but they are not as good as the vendor I normally use out of NY). The Clown Trigger was not breathing heavily, and no discoloration or scratching. I need to set up my remote camera on a stand to try and get a picture because he is hiding in a spot in between some rocks where I can't get a good picture or video.

I tested my cooper level and it is at 2.46 based on the Hanna Checker. Nitrates are at 5, coming off a water change on the weekend, where it was 23.5 before. No Ammonia and no Nitrate.

I'm at a loss as to what this could be other than cyanide poisoning syndrome. This is exactly what happens with my Harlequin Tusks as well.

 

[MnFish1]

Update on my QT progress. Last night, before lights out on the QT tank, I saw that my Clown Trigger went into the infamous rock. I shook the rock to get him out and even put it up against the pump return to encourage him out. After putting the rock down, he came out, and I literally threw the rock away.

Now, as of this morning, the Clown Trigger went from being a very energetic eater to having no interest in food. He is hiding all the time. His QT tankmate, the Coral Beauty, is doing great! The Coral Beauty ate like always and is very active. I got a glimpse of the Clown Trigger and now signs of illness other than the lympho that is on his anal fin, which has been there since he arrived (bad online vendor, I'm not naming names, but they are not as good as the vendor I normally use out of NY). The Clown Trigger was not breathing heavily, and no discoloration or scratching. I need to set up my remote camera on a stand to try and get a picture because he is hiding in a spot in between some rocks where I can't get a good picture or video.

I tested my cooper level and it is at 2.46 based on the Hanna Checker. Nitrates are at 5, coming off a water change on the weekend, where it was 23.5 before. No Ammonia and no Nitrate.

I'm at a loss as to what this could be other than cyanide poisoning syndrome. This is exactly what happens with my Harlequin Tusks as well.

I'm curious - the title and OP here is that you were wondering about Huma Huma triggers because you've never had other problems - now there are several deaths. So it just makes it confusing to get the timeline

FYi - Lymphocystis is a symptom of transport, poor water quality or stress and is self-limited - not necessarily a problem with the vendor.

Can you post a picture of the clown trigger?

Looking at your list of fish that have died - several are difficult and some say nearly impossible to keep without the proper food. Some can be affected by cyanide.

 

[kboogie]

I'm curious - the title and OP here is that you were wondering about Huma Huma triggers because you've never had other problems - now there are several deaths. So it just makes it confusing to get the timeline

FYi - Lymphocystis is a symptom of transport, poor water quality or stress and is self-limited - not necessarily a problem with the vendor.

Can you post a picture of the clown trigger?

Looking at your list of fish that have died - several are difficult and some say nearly impossible to keep without the proper food. Some can be affected by cyanide.

Thank you for your feedback and for reading my posts. I don't think I did a good job of explaining why I posted the list of quarantine deaths before the Humu Humu deaths. What I was trying to achieve with that post was to show that all my previous QT deaths were easily and clearly explainable because it involved a fish that either is known to be modestly (but not extremely) hardy but never ate like the Majestic Angel I lost or fish that, to the point you mention, are extremely difficult to QT or keep alive (such as the Regals and the Bimac Anthias), or fish like the Harlequin Tusk that are infamous for collection issues that result in death several weeks after capture. My intent was to highlight how the loss of multiple Humu Humu Triggers (and potentially now a Clown Trigger) is unusual, given the known hardiness of these fish, which had me wondering if there was some species-specific factor I was not taking into account. Jay pointed out some collection items that feel like they could be a factor.

I do want to thank you again for your engagement, feedback, and patience.

Regarding the lympho, I appreciate the point you make, and I am aware of the root cause of lympho. It was more of an exclamation point on what was a less-than-pleasurable purchase and delivery experience with an online vendor with whom I've never worked before. Over the years, I've used four online vendors, with LiveAquaria being the first I ever tried, and I'm never doing that again. In 2021, I found another popular online vendor, and they have been amazing!!! The quality of the product is always high, but the customer service has been better than anything I've ever experienced, including my trips to the BMW dealer or when my wife dragged me to the interior decorator. I missed out when they had tiny and small Clown Triggers, so I tried a new up-and-coming online retailer I saw in my social media feeds, and they basically took the order, only to say they didn't have the Clown Trigger anymore, and left me feeling less than great with how they handled everything. You would think I would have learned my lesson, but I decided to take another shot with the other online retailer I frequently see in my social media feeds. Their customer service was even worse, and their speed to ship was the worst I've ever seen! That, combined with the lack of effective communication, made receiving a fish with lympho, which normally is no big deal, feel like more of an issue than it actually was.

I doubt I will use either of those two other online retailers again. I'll stick with my primary online retailer and a couple of new LFS that carry nicer and larger fish than the other three LFS that have been around a long time. (One of those new local retailers is where I got the Humu Humu, and they do a good job with selecting their fish, so I have no ill will towards them regarding this.)

I know that was a lot, but just providing background.

I can't get a good picture or video of the Clown Trigger because of where he is hiding, but I have this, which I hope helps you understand what he is currently doing.

 

[MnFish1]

Thank you for your feedback and for reading my posts. I don't think I did a good job of explaining why I posted the list of quarantine deaths before the Humu Humu deaths. What I was trying to achieve with that post was to show that all my previous QT deaths were easily and clearly explainable because it involved a fish that either is known to be modestly (but not extremely) hardy but never ate like the Majestic Angel I lost or fish that, to the point you mention, are extremely difficult to QT or keep alive (such as the Regals and the Bimac Anthias), or fish like the Harlequin Tusk that are infamous for collection issues that result in death several weeks after capture. My intent was to highlight how the loss of multiple Humu Humu Triggers (and potentially now a Clown Trigger) is unusual, given the known hardiness of these fish, which had me wondering if there was some species-specific factor I was not taking into account. Jay pointed out some collection items that feel like they could be a factor.

I do want to thank you again for your engagement, feedback, and patience.

Regarding the lympho, I appreciate the point you make, and I am aware of the root cause of lympho. It was more of an exclamation point on what was a less-than-pleasurable purchase and delivery experience with an online vendor with whom I've never worked before. Over the years, I've used four online vendors, with LiveAquaria being the first I ever tried, and I'm never doing that again. In 2021, I found another popular online vendor, and they have been amazing!!! The quality of the product is always high, but the customer service has been better than anything I've ever experienced, including my trips to the BMW dealer or when my wife dragged me to the interior decorator. I missed out when they had tiny and small Clown Triggers, so I tried a new up-and-coming online retailer I saw in my social media feeds, and they basically took the order, only to say they didn't have the Clown Trigger anymore, and left me feeling less than great with how they handled everything. You would think I would have learned my lesson, but I decided to take another shot with the other online retailer I frequently see in my social media feeds. Their customer service was even worse, and their speed to ship was the worst I've ever seen! That, combined with the lack of effective communication, made receiving a fish with lympho, which normally is no big deal, feel like more of an issue than it actually was.

I doubt I will use either of those two other online retailers again. I'll stick with my primary online retailer and a couple of new LFS that carry nicer and larger fish than the other three LFS that have been around a long time. (One of those new local retailers is where I got the Humu Humu, and they do a good job with selecting their fish, so I have no ill will towards them regarding this.)

I know that was a lot, but just providing background.

I can't get a good picture or video of the Clown Trigger because of where he is hiding, but I have this, which I hope helps you understand what he is currently doing.

You're welcome - and I wasn't trying to be critical, only trying to figure out what could be going on. What kind of fish have made it through your QT process and are doing well now in the tank besides the Clown trigger?

 

[kboogie]

You're welcome - and I wasn't trying to be critical, only trying to figure out what could be going on. What kind of fish have made it through your QT process and are doing well now in the tank besides the Clown trigger?

The question regarding who has made it through my QT process is a good one. Below is the list.

1) 1.5" Purple Tang, entered November 22nd, existed March 18th (I had to restart because of the introduction of other fish to the QT tank.

2) Juvenile Majestic Angel, entered January 3rd, existed March 18th (now almost fully transitioned to adult colors)

3) Adult Blueface Angel, entered January 3rd, existed March 18th (died of weird bacteria infection in the DT after about a week)

4) Adult Asfur Angel, entered March 19th, existed May 16th (Was the boss of the tank before the PBT, has the longest streamers and is the thickest Asfur I have ever seen at 5". Also, has a beautiful deep black with irradescant purple sheen)

5) Adult Desjardini, entered March 19th, existed May 16th ( Is getting fat and has grown 33%)

6) Powder Blue Tang, entered May 22nd, existed June 30th (Is the boss of the tank and is fat)

7) Blue Hippo Tang, entered May 22nd, existed June 30th (is nice a fat)

8) Juvenile Emperor Angel, entered May 22nd, existed June 30th (doing well, I want him to be fatter, but he is not skinny)

9) Lemon Peel Angel, entered July 3rd, existed August 5th (doing great and is fat with unreal color)

10) Flame Angel, entered July 3rd, existed August 5th (doing great and is almost as fat as the Lemon Peel has the craziest orange I've ever seen on a Flame Angel in 35 years )

11) Green Bird Wrasse, entered July 3rd, existed August 5th (He is the life of the DT. He is thriving. Almost has the beer belly I desire for him)