question on tank cycle

[docforestal]

Hello, I am asking a simple question for clarification and verification by Randy and not trying to stir up any kind of controversy or bad feelings.. It has been suggested that tank cycling knowledge has changed.
My understanding is with what ever method used (shrimp/live rock/bacteria in a bottle after ammonia dosing) we will see ammonia present and rise. as bacteria reproduce and feed, it will start to drop , nitrites will appear and peak as the ammonia is broken down and decreases, and then further along nitrates will peak as nitrites decrease to 0.
Once ammonia is gone, it should be safe to add critters slowly watching for mini cycles
I recognize many of the "color" tests for ammonia often look to show 0.25 present when is zero and often may have a larger standard deviation of error compared to digital (although calibration may be a factor with them)

Is testing for ammonia still the best way to know it is safe to add livestock? once it is at zero., it is safe. Are test kits accurate enough to use (i recognize some are a little better than others) in the sense they are actually detecting present ammonia.
I realize ammonia has to be quite high to be toxic to fish, adding livestock while not cycled can increase ammonia and stress and not the best practice.
I also realize I am older school and coming back to the hobby after a hiatus; if in fact, evidence states we can add bacteria in a bottle, not test and be safe to fully stock a tank right away , i would be happy to adopt best new practices/knowledge. , but would like to see citations and or expert opinion on the matter
thank you very much

 

[Saltyreef]

Hello, I am asking a simple question for clarification and verification by Randy and not trying to stir up any kind of controversy or bad feelings.. It has been suggested that tank cycling knowledge has changed.
My understanding is with what ever method used (shrimp/live rock/bacteria in a bottle after ammonia dosing) we will see ammonia present and rise. as bacteria reproduce and feed, it will start to drop , nitrites will appear and peak as the ammonia is broken down and decreases, and then further along nitrates will peak as nitrites decrease to 0.
Once ammonia is gone, it should be safe to add critters slowly watching for mini cycles
I recognize many of the "color" tests for ammonia often look to show 0.25 present when is zero and often may have a larger standard deviation of error compared to digital (although calibration may be a factor with them)

Is testing for ammonia still the best way to know it is safe to add livestock? once it is at zero., it is safe. Are test kits accurate enough to use (i recognize some are a little better than others) in the sense they are actually detecting present ammonia.
I realize ammonia has to be quite high to be toxic to fish, adding livestock while not cycled can increase ammonia and stress and not the best practice.
I also realize I am older school and coming back to the hobby after a hiatus; if in fact, evidence states we can add bacteria in a bottle, not test and be safe to fully stock a tank right away , i would be happy to adopt best new practices/knowledge. , but would like to see citations and or expert opinion on the matter
thank you very much

Yes. And be aware just because the test kit shows total ammonia present, doesnt mean its not processing it.

Total ammonia is not toxic to fish. Free ammonia is.
This is why a lot of people choose the seachem badge during cycling and quarantining. (Be sure to use one thats not expired or already used)

 

[Crustaceon]

In my honest opinion, testing ammonia and seeing zero after cycling isn't a guarantee that a tank is ready to handle whatever bioload is then thrown into it. We see threads with this exact result all the time. It's uncanny. That's why, for safety's sake, us "old school" reefers say "wait a few extra weeks". Do we know the precise timeline when you can throw a handful of fish into a tank and not have problems? No and neither does our "scientific community" here. Not yet anyways. I'm sure some degree of research has been done, but I don't think it's the full picture and data that can be used and applied by the average or even advanced hobbyist. No one here is realistically going to take sample after sample from a cycled display and determine bacterial population on substrate and how they corollate to a certain amount of ammonia that can be processed within a certain timeframe and how that would affect a hardier vs. sensitive critter. It's just too much.

 

[brandon429]

can someone please post any instance/thread they can find where a new reef display was unable to control ammonia and the tank crashed. if we're going to debate safety continuums, I'd like to see the bad outcome, at least a couple instances

I think this is a good thread, all sides of the cycling debate need analysis and scrutiny.


it can't be a testimony someone saw at home, those can be made up or based on misreads

try and find any sequence of linkable threads where fish couldn't be carried in a reef display/post those

if this thread gets to page 3 of warnings, and we see zero linked examples of ammonia noncontrol in a reef display, then that means something for sure in the opinions given. failure to control ammonia is serious business... it's a tank/animal killer. it should be easy to find examples where people rushed things and killed their fish. we can worry about ruling out acclimation stress and disease once we see the posts. If we can't find any examples even though people have cycled 4 million reef tanks the last 20 years online, that means something about inherent ammonia control in my opinion. lots of people have opinions about ammonia control, risks of rushing: we just can't find the actual loss examples in the times I tried to look.

 

[Saltyreef]

In my honest opinion, testing ammonia and seeing zero after cycling isn't a guarantee that a tank is ready to handle whatever bioload is then thrown into it.

I agree with you 100% but disagree with the overall sentiment of what was posted as most new reefers arent completely stocking their newly cycled tanks wall to wall with coral.

Granted, you can put established liverock and livesand in a new tank and have an instant wall to wall reef if husbandry demands were immediately met.

 

[Saltyreef]

can someone please post any instance/thread they can find where a reef display was unable to control ammonia and the tank crashed. if we're going to debate safety continuums, I'd like to see the bad outcome, at least a couple instances

I think this is a good thread, all sides of the cycling debate need analysis and scrutiny.


it can't be a testimony someone saw at home, those can be made up or based on misreads

try and find any sequence of linkable threads where fish couldn't be carried in a reef display/post those

if this thread gets to page 3 of warnings, and we see zero linked examples of ammonia noncontrol in a reef display, then that means something for sure in the opinions given. failure to control ammonia is serious business... it's a tank/animal killer. it should be easy to find examples where people rushed things and killed their fish. we can worry about ruling out acclimation stress and disease once we see the posts. If we can't find any examples even though people have cycled 4 million reef tanks the last 20 years online, that means something about inherent ammonia control in my opinion. lots of people have opinions about ammonia control, risks of rushing: we just can't find the actual loss examples in the times I tried to look.

Was wondering when you were going to show up.... Im already 2 beers in

 

[brandon429]

I only wanted to ask for some results threads/won't taint up the rest of the thread he deserves a fair analysis by the chemistry forum for sure.

 

[brandon429]

one last kicker then no more tainting

-chemists are whispering bigtime that ammonia really is taking longer than cycling charts show to go down (10 days) and they're stating that lucky pH levels in each tank startup is preventing the ammonia from expressing as free ammonia/lethal

I'm claiming all the cheap test kits are mis reading, and there isn't a concerning level. if indeed millions of reef tanks had inherent pH controls in place that prevented ammonia lethality that means API got a really bad rap for a long time and there really are millions of months old reef tanks that can't move ammonia down past .25 or .5 or even 8 ppm in some cases, I have the threads.


I legit want to ask this of chemists: why is it in our cycling threads we don't get any deaths from ammonia control without assessing who lives in crowded, densely-inhabited small apartments with gas heating and 4 large dogs + a 4 person family vs 1 occupant large home, 5000 sq ft, ventilated with open windows and electric heating

why don't those two very opposite pH presentations give us some deaths in pattern, at least 4 searchable examples?

aren't there vastly different alkalinity params new tank to new tank, some high and some low? I would think pH ranges big time across new tanks, with both high and low examples. I never check for any of those details in cycle assessments. Dan_P is the #1 person I'd like to ask this to.

what doesn't range across 1000 reef tank cycles analyzed: stacks a bunch of high surface area rocks in a warm water fast flow display having dosed known water bacteria and feed. that lends ammonia control in my opinion.

the reason I don't buy any of these outlier claims is because they all have rocks stacked in the middle of high flow warm water systems having incorporated bacteria and feed. none of that is pH-streamlining.

 

[docforestal]

@Saltyreef and @Crustaceon ,thank you. I have tended to wait 4 weeks after cycle to start with CUC and then slowly fish, then months later corals. Appreciate it

 

[Crustaceon]

can someone please post any instance/thread they can find where a new reef display was unable to control ammonia and the tank crashed. if we're going to debate safety continuums, I'd like to see the bad outcome, at least a couple instances

I think this is a good thread, all sides of the cycling debate need analysis and scrutiny.


it can't be a testimony someone saw at home, those can be made up or based on misreads

try and find any sequence of linkable threads where fish couldn't be carried in a reef display/post those

if this thread gets to page 3 of warnings, and we see zero linked examples of ammonia noncontrol in a reef display, then that means something for sure in the opinions given. failure to control ammonia is serious business... it's a tank/animal killer. it should be easy to find examples where people rushed things and killed their fish. we can worry about ruling out acclimation stress and disease once we see the posts. If we can't find any examples even though people have cycled 4 million reef tanks the last 20 years online, that means something about inherent ammonia control in my opinion. lots of people have opinions about ammonia control, risks of rushing: we just can't find the actual loss examples in the times I tried to look.

What we see are threads where someone cycled their tank while monitoring ammonia, saw the ammonia levels reach zero, added livestock and had them die.

can someone please post any instance/thread they can find where a new reef display was unable to control ammonia and the tank crashed. if we're going to debate safety continuums, I'd like to see the bad outcome, at least a couple instances

I think this is a good thread, all sides of the cycling debate need analysis and scrutiny.


it can't be a testimony someone saw at home, those can be made up or based on misreads

try and find any sequence of linkable threads where fish couldn't be carried in a reef display/post those

if this thread gets to page 3 of warnings, and we see zero linked examples of ammonia noncontrol in a reef display, then that means something for sure in the opinions given. failure to control ammonia is serious business... it's a tank/animal killer. it should be easy to find examples where people rushed things and killed their fish. we can worry about ruling out acclimation stress and disease once we see the posts. If we can't find any examples even though people have cycled 4 million reef tanks the last 20 years online, that means something about inherent ammonia control in my opinion. lots of people have opinions about ammonia control, risks of rushing: we just can't find the actual loss examples in the times I tried to look.

I think we can see the outcome in any “is my tank cycled yet” or “why did my brand new clownfish die in my brand new tank” thread where livestock was added and quickly lost. This could be something like how a tank with “zero” nitrates and phosphates according to testing somehow still has a hair algae infestation. There’s likely a process normal testing simply isn’t picking up on. More research is probably needed for sure. I’m not a scientist and not one to explain exactly what’s going on here which is why I recommended playing it safe even though it may not be “optimal”.

 

[Crustaceon]

I agree with you 100% but disagree with the overall sentiment of what was posted as most new reefers arent completely stocking their newly cycled tanks wall to wall with coral.

Granted, you can put established liverock and livesand in a new tank and have an instant wall to wall reef if husbandry demands were immediately met.

This isn’t necessarily “wall to wall” stocking I’m talking about. It can be A fish added that dies as is frequently the case here.

 

[Crustaceon]

can someone please post any instance/thread they can find where a new reef display was unable to control ammonia and the tank crashed. if we're going to debate safety continuums, I'd like to see the bad outcome, at least a couple instances

I think this is a good thread, all sides of the cycling debate need analysis and scrutiny.


it can't be a testimony someone saw at home, those can be made up or based on misreads

try and find any sequence of linkable threads where fish couldn't be carried in a reef display/post those

if this thread gets to page 3 of warnings, and we see zero linked examples of ammonia noncontrol in a reef display, then that means something for sure in the opinions given. failure to control ammonia is serious business... it's a tank/animal killer. it should be easy to find examples where people rushed things and killed their fish. we can worry about ruling out acclimation stress and disease once we see the posts. If we can't find any examples even though people have cycled 4 million reef tanks the last 20 years online, that means something about inherent ammonia control in my opinion. lots of people have opinions about ammonia control, risks of rushing: we just can't find the actual loss examples in the times I tried to look.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/stocking-fluval-13-5-2-clownfish-died-idk-why.973301/ This is likely a lack of proper cycling issue. No, it’s not a “crash”, but it’s probably a loss of new livestock in a new tank if acclimation was done properly.

 

[NWUKReefer]

My aquarium has been cycling for 6 days now and still no change whatsoever. Ammonia still at 8ppm, Nitrite still at 0ppm also Nitrate still at 0ppm. I'm absolutely at my whits end as to what to do next, using Dr Tims ammonium chloride and Seachem stability but feel like I'm getting know where. Any help is much appreciated

 

[brandon429]

post a pic of your tank we can fix it easily

from the pic we get general ideas on degree of surface area etc, we have the doser used and the # of days wait so far, that's just about all we need to set a predetermined start date. tank pics let's see

 

[brandon429]

stability is slow cycling bacteria.

can you get this instead:

ten pounds of already live rock, from specifically inside another reef tank at the pet store, or can you get dr tims bacteria, biospira, or fritz at the pet store vs stability?

 

[Saltyreef]

My aquarium has been cycling for 6 days now and still no change whatsoever. Ammonia still at 8ppm, Nitrite still at 0ppm also Nitrate still at 0ppm. I'm absolutely at my whits end as to what to do next, using Dr Tims ammonium chloride and Seachem stability but feel like I'm getting know where. Any help is much appreciated

Sounds like a lot of ammonia. Did you add the stability first?
You might want to try another bottled bac product.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

...and be safe to fully stock a tank right away ,

I don't believe ANY bottled bacteria company claims this...

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

My aquarium has been cycling for 6 days now and still no change whatsoever. Ammonia still at 8ppm, Nitrite still at 0ppm also Nitrate still at 0ppm. I'm absolutely at my whits end as to what to do next, using Dr Tims ammonium chloride and Seachem stability but feel like I'm getting know where. Any help is much appreciated

8ppm is really high.
Stability isn't the best of the products out there... If you have access to it, add a bottle of Fritzyme turbo start (after doing a 50% water change to lower the ammonia).

And don't add any more ammonia!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

My aquarium has been cycling for 6 days now and still no change whatsoever. Ammonia still at 8ppm, Nitrite still at 0ppm also Nitrate still at 0ppm. I'm absolutely at my whits end as to what to do next, using Dr Tims ammonium chloride and Seachem stability but feel like I'm getting know where. Any help is much appreciated

Maybe that product did not have much living bacteria. Trying a different brand may be wise.