Questions about fishless cycling and nitrite spikes

[780blaster]

So I'm in the process of a fishless cycle (first tank) using MB start XLM + ammonia dosing and have learned quite a bit about everything so far.
Currently, I'm experiencing a nitrite spike / possible stall. Based on the salifert tests, I'm probably around 4ppm nitrite, honestly, probably higher since it maxes out at 4. From what I've read - the consensus is that Nitrite concentrations at 5ppm or greater (i very likely fall in this category) will cause a cycle to stall and would require a partial water change to bring nitrite down closer to 2ppm where the bacteria that convert NO2 to NO3 can start to populate.

Here's the question. Most fishless cycling procedures will have you dose ammonia to 2ppm. Upon conversion, 1ppm of ammonia will yield 2.7ppm of nitrite. 2ppm of ammonia would give double that - 5.4ppm of nitrite. This is obviously above the 5ppm threshold that is said to stall a cycle so the question is: how does any tank cycle without a partial water change given that standard ammonia dosing will put nitrite concentrations into "stall" territory?

Is the stall a myth? or am I missing something here?

 

[exnisstech]

I've never heard of a stalled cycle. I also never test nitrite. Once I see nitrate I proceed slowly adding livestock.

 

[taricha]

Here's the question. Most fishless cycling procedures will have you dose ammonia to 2ppm. Upon conversion, 1ppm of ammonia will yield 2.7ppm of nitrite. 2ppm of ammonia would give double that - 5.4ppm of nitrite. This is obviously above the 5ppm threshold that is said to stall a cycle so the question is: how does any tank cycle without a partial water change given that standard ammonia dosing will put nitrite concentrations into "stall" territory?

Is the stall a myth? or am I missing something here?

1)Many bacterial products can process down plenty high levels of nitrite way over 5ppm, so that's not really the problem.
2) some bacterial products have good ammonia oxidizers and not so good nitrite oxidizers. In the data below, MB start processed ammonia for me decently fast, but in 45 days, never touched nitrite.
3) most people will do a water change or two, because if they do a couple of rounds of 2ppm ammonia, then the eventual nitrate will often be higher than they want to deal with.

Now, it's apparently joined MB Start XLM in the category of building up a bunch of NO2 and it sticking around without any noticeable activity by nitrite oxidizers. Not that people care about a bunch of NO2, I just think it's interesting because I did not expect the NO2 oxidizers to be a difference between these products.

 

[WhySoSeriousDory]

Cycles don’t stall some just take longer then others.. patience

 

[kboogie]

So I'm in the process of a fishless cycle (first tank) using MB start XLM + ammonia dosing and have learned quite a bit about everything so far.
Currently, I'm experiencing a nitrite spike / possible stall. Based on the salifert tests, I'm probably around 4ppm nitrite, honestly, probably higher since it maxes out at 4. From what I've read - the consensus is that Nitrite concentrations at 5ppm or greater (i very likely fall in this category) will cause a cycle to stall and would require a partial water change to bring nitrite down closer to 2ppm where the bacteria that convert NO2 to NO3 can start to populate.

Here's the question. Most fishless cycling procedures will have you dose ammonia to 2ppm. Upon conversion, 1ppm of ammonia will yield 2.7ppm of nitrite. 2ppm of ammonia would give double that - 5.4ppm of nitrite. This is obviously above the 5ppm threshold that is said to stall a cycle so the question is: how does any tank cycle without a partial water change given that standard ammonia dosing will put nitrite concentrations into "stall" territory?

Is the stall a myth? or am I missing something here?

The concept of stall when cycling is interesting. Can you share links to where you read about this or provide citations. I would love to read more about the stall and the causes.

 

[unchainedcoot]

The concept of stall when cycling is interesting. Can you share links to where you read about this or provide citations. I would love to read more about the stall and the causes.

Dr. Tim’s cites these stalling issues with his fishless cycle recipe on his site. There is some unit conversion things that pop up. 5mg/L-nitrogen does not equal 5ppm (this is what I wrongly assumed when following his recipe). Someone who is much better with chemistry than myself would need to explain the difference.

 

[kboogie]

Dr. Tim’s cites these stalling issues with his fishless cycle recipe on his site. There is some unit conversion things that pop up. 5mg/L-nitrogen does not equal 5ppm (this is what I wrongly assumed when following his recipe). Someone who is much better with chemistry than myself would need to explain the difference.

I used a combination of CaribSea Arag Alive sand and MB Start. I was cycled in less than a week. I put a meaningful bio load on it in the first week after cycling and never had ammonia or nitrite spikes. I tested daily looking for those spikes after adding 15 fish to a 300G in a week.

 

[unchainedcoot]

I used a combination of CaribSea Arag Alive sand and MB Start. I was cycled in less than a week. I put a meaningful bio load on it in the first week after cycling and never had ammonia or nitrite spikes. I tested daily looking for those spikes after adding 15 fish to a 300G in a week.

What was the ammonia source for the one week cycle?

 

[Chad72]

Dr. Tim’s cites these stalling issues with his fishless cycle recipe on his site. There is some unit conversion things that pop up. 5mg/L-nitrogen does not equal 5ppm (this is what I wrongly assumed when following his recipe). Someone who is much better with chemistry than myself would need to explain the difference.

It does equal that. 1 mg/L=1ppm.

 

[kboogie]

What was the ammonia source for the one week cycle?

Doctor Tim's Ammonium Chloride. Amazon product ASIN B08GWKZD6N

 

[unchainedcoot]

It does equal that. 1 mg/L=1ppm.

That “-nitrogen” part is doing some lifting there no? Again, I’m no chemist

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

That “-nitrogen” part is doing some lifting there no? Again, I’m no chemist

Ammonia, nitrite and nitrate can be measured in ppm-N, or in ppm total weight.


ppm-N is a way to measure nitrogen atoms in solution. It is equal to the ppm concentration of nitrogen atoms, and usually specifies what form they take. It is often used, for example, to describe the concentration of ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate ions in aquaria. It can also be used to describe the amount of nitrogen in dissolved organic matter (DOM), particulate organic matter (POM), or total organic matter (TOM) in seawater. In these cases, the results are reported as “nitrate = 12 ppm-N" or “12 ppm nitrate-N,” which means that there is 12 ppm of nitrogen in the solution is in the nitrate form. In order to convert ppm-N to ppm, divide the ppm-N value by the fraction of weight of nitrogen in the ion. The table below shows these corrections:

Species​ ppm-N​ ppm ​ NH3 (ammonia)​ 1.00​ 1.21​ NH4+ (ammonium)​ 1.00​ 1.29​ NO2- (nitrite)​ 1.00​ 3.29​ NO3- (nitrate)​ 1.00​ 4.43​

 

[unchainedcoot]

Ammonia, nitrite and nitrate can be measured in ppm-N, or in ppm total weight.


ppm-N is a way to measure nitrogen atoms in solution. It is equal to the ppm concentration of nitrogen atoms, and usually specifies what form they take. It is often used, for example, to describe the concentration of ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate ions in aquaria. It can also be used to describe the amount of nitrogen in dissolved organic matter (DOM), particulate organic matter (POM), or total organic matter (TOM) in seawater. In these cases, the results are reported as “nitrate = 12 ppm-N" or “12 ppm nitrate-N,” which means that there is 12 ppm of nitrogen in the solution is in the nitrate form. In order to convert ppm-N to ppm, divide the ppm-N value by the fraction of weight of nitrogen in the ion. The table below shows these corrections:

​

​ Species​ ppm-N​ ppm ​ NH3 (ammonia)​ 1.00​ 1.21​ NH4+ (ammonium)​ 1.00​ 1.29​ NO2- (nitrite)​ 1.00​ 3.29​ NO3- (nitrate)​ 1.00​ 4.43​

Appreciate the explanation. Dr. Tim (and Randy) keeping us non-chemists on our toes.

So by this table, I don’t think most home test kits that I’ve come across would be able to measure Dr. Tim’s stalling concentrations without some dilution and math. Particularly the nitrite values