Raise Baby Banggai in Sump or Separate Tank?

[Smarkow]

Came home from an overnight shift to find a pleasant surprise - a single baby Banggai cardinal fish swimming/bobbing near the surface of my sump.

I have no experience rearing fry and never intended to, however my fiancé (who also loves this hobby) immediately upon seeing the baby banggai looked at me with fierceness in her eyes and said "HE. MUST. LIVE." So now I am a Banggai breeder, lol.

Full tank shot:

I have a 210 display, with about 90 gallons in the sump affectionately referred to by my fiancé as the "pink palace under the sea." I should mention the sump has egg crate, tons of rubble, and NO skimmer, and I plan on putting a filter cover over the return pump - meaning I do have the option of keeping him in the refugium until he is big enough to give away. I've previously read up on rearing Banggai, and refreshed myself by reading all morning - but this will be a new adventure. and this hobby is always a challenge

Lastly, this is the only fry I can find, but the male Banggai still seems to be mouth brooding, (photo below, bigger female in foreground guarding, shy male in middle ignoring food with a distended mouth) so my understanding is that this little guy is essentially a day old and I am just a night away from having a tank full of fry. So I need to decide today on whether or not to quickly set up a breeding tank (Petco labor day sale?) or try and rear these guys in the sump.

Advantages of keeping them in the sump: this thing is FULL of pods, I can feed baby brine shrimp into the overflow and have them distribute among the sump, would not need to rapidly set up a bare bottom breeder tank, cheapest route
Advantages of getting a new tank: my fiancé let me buy a new tank, can move the male over tonight in anticipation of him releasing the fry, can target feed baby brine shrimp, can set this up as a permanent breeder tank

Either way getting some brine shrimp hatched and some Cyclop-Eeze STAT.

Thanks all!

 

[pdisner]

That’s exciting! Breeding is ALOT of fun. I’ve been doing it full-time over the last year as I’ve been ill and had to start working out of my home. I turned my study into a miniature hatchery, lol.
I’ve had some successes with breeding my bangaiis and I’d like to offer any assistance you may need. I’ve made my mistakes, so you won’t have to make them. I would suggest pulling your male out, and either putting him in a Breeder box or basket until the others pop out, or if your comfortable in forcing the mouth open if it been about 24 days. Obviously you wouldn’t want to loose the rest of the little ones, and you’ll want to start feeding them now with NHBBS. Decapsulate your Bernie eggs so you dont get hydroids. I’ve got a couple of PDFs and some textbooks with some great info if you’d like it. Let me know. I have a couple of threads here in breeding forum, but I also have a Facebook page I post all my pics and video of the breeding projects I work on. You can message me there too.

 

[pdisner]

Here’s video I put together documenting my first successful clutch. What’s your plan on raising the rest? I’ve put my male into a Breeder basket from Walmart 3$ or I’ve used a 10gal with a sponge filter, eventually graduating to an over the side.they take quite awhile to grow out, about 6mos.

 

[Smarkow]

Here’s video I put together documenting my first successful clutch. What’s your plan on raising the rest? I’ve put my male into a Breeder basket from Walmart 3$ or I’ve used a 10gal with a sponge filter, eventually graduating to an over the side.they take quite awhile to grow out, about 6mos.

Nice video, and thanks for the reply. Would 100% be interested in any PDFs or books you recommend, PM details or just post links? What does NHBBS mean (non-hatched? baby brine shrimp?)

So based on your advice I got a 10 gallon breeder tank and set it up next to my display. I put a large live rock piece in the sump with lots of algae for hiding places and tons of pods to stimulate the little guys. There is a large airstone in the corner. I ordered brine shrimp eggs, hatchery, and decapsulated eggs. I typically do ZERO water changes but I am guessing my first attempt at rearing fry should include some. Last night I captured the little guy from the sump (he was quick, but I was quicker) but the brooding male eludes me (he was quicker). Is there a trap I can use? Should I just wait for him to spawn and then get the little guys?

 

[pdisner]

Nice video, and thanks for the reply. Would 100% be interested in any PDFs or books you recommend, PM details or just post links? What does NHBBS mean (non-hatched? baby brine shrimp?)

So based on your advice I got a 10 gallon breeder tank and set it up next to my display. I put a large live rock piece in the sump with lots of algae for hiding places and tons of pods to stimulate the little guys. There is a large airstone in the corner. I ordered brine shrimp eggs, hatchery, and decapsulated eggs. I typically do ZERO water changes but I am guessing my first attempt at rearing fry should include some. Last night I captured the little guy from the sump (he was quick, but I was quicker) but the brooding male eludes me (he was quicker). Is there a trap I can use? Should I just wait for him to spawn and then get the little guys?

I’ve got a couple things to say. First, sounds like you’re on top of it. Your are correct in thing pristine water quality. But it IS very important to establish some sort of BIOfilter. With Bangaiis, they don’t have a larval stage like most fish. They spend their larval stage in the mouth of their pop. This is in our favor, because they’re fully developed by the time they’re out, unless prematurely spit out for some reason. I think it’s best to leave the eggs in if at all possible. Some people like to force open the jaws of the fish. I haven’t tried this, so I don’t know how that all works out. I’m always afraid of rushing nature and leave it to the animals. It’s innate and they already know what to do, sometimes needing a little practice. I had a friend who recently force eggs out, even after I told her not to. It didn’t work out to well, lost all the eggs. I cant seem to get the attachments to work right with Tapatalk. No sense in trying to help me with that, it’s a glitch with Tapatalk and don’t have a desktop or laptop that’s working right now. I could put it in a Dropbox but easier to email or Facebook.
You were correct in thinking NHBBS is newly hatched baby brine. The copepods are awesome, in my opinion the most nutritious. You’ll want to start getting them to eat other stuff besides brine. It’s not the best food and defiantly not a natural food source in the wild. With pods, make sure you get a species that are free swimming, in the water column. Immediately I start feeding them TDO, a professional grade breeders food from Reed Mariculture. You’ll want to check that out. Specially formulated, probiotics, color enhancers, highly digestable proteins and essential fatty acids and vitamins. I use it for all my fish thru adulthood, slightly different make up and size specific which is nice. There’s multiple sizes.
One last piece of advice, get a good sponge filter. Also you can use an over the side filter or small canister filter, as the flow isn’t too high and cover the intake with a sponge, which will also add more surface area for beneficial bacteria to colonize which is SUPER important at this age. Also, buy STABILIZE (beneficial bacteria) and PRIME (makes nitrates, ammonia and chlorine/chloramines non-toxic). I’m indifferent about he macroalgae, I may help with nitrates. I use a similar system for my larval fish. I use a feed tub that I got from a feed and tack store, you know for horses and stuff. I plumbed that to a HOB wet(dry I bought for 10$. Works really great and keeps water nice and zeroed out. Very nice flow and very clean because its round.
One thing to keep in mind, do daily water changes. 20% I’d say, DAILY. So mix up a bunch of RODI SW ahead of time. Don’t use the live rock. And make sure there’s always nice dense food supply. Not too dense, but enough that they won’t have to move to find. They’re great eaters, like I said experiment and get them eating TDO or crushed pellet. Make sure you have vitamins and Selcon as well to soak food in. Also, and this is import, BUY DECAPSULTED BRINE SHRIMP EGGS. You’ll thank me. The shells are I digestable and will kill the fish if an obstruction occurs. Also, if you don’t decapsulte hydroids are the problem. If you don’t know what those are, they are like small jellyfish that kill your babies. Some of those took down 9 of 10 seahorses of mine. So everything I’m telling you is because I’ve learned from screwing up, lol. Trial and error. I’ve been breeding full blast, several species for just over a year, I’ve leaned a lot and have collected bunch of academic type of research and I’ll help anyone with what I’ve learned so far for anyone that wants to start doing this. Let me know if more questions. This stuff is easier chatting on Facebook messenger which I prefer over Tapatalk for comunication. My page again is @PaulsPodsAZ. Just enter it into search. I usually respond right away. So if you have more quations or if anyone else does, it’s an open invitation. Would like to get more people together that are doing this. You can post your pics and video on my group page as well.

 

[pdisner]

I need to get u that pdf soon so you know all the minor details. It’s by University of Hawaii

 

[pdisner]

You’ll need to baby proof a little. Get rid of everything except essentials. Macroalgae is just another way for them to get trapped. Move the airstone underneath heater. Keeps them away, prevents scalding deaths. I cover the lights on my heaters so it doesn’t attract them, esp at night. Remember to take that rock out as well. No need and present a trap hazard. And if Apex copepods are available, get them, Tisbe or Parvo pods.

 

[Tom@HaslettMI]

Hard to tell from your picture but that baby looks like it might be from an earlier clutch. It just looks too developed to be newly released. But again it’s hard to tell for sure.

I’ve only raised one batch of cardinals so far and I did it in a small basket in the display. I did this to avoid maintenance on an additional tank. I did not lose any.

Good luck!

 

[pdisner]

Hard to tell from your picture but that baby looks like it might be from an earlier clutch. It just looks too developed to be newly released. But again it’s hard to tell for sure.

I’ve only raised one batch of cardinals so far and I did it in a small basket in the display. I did this to avoid maintenance on an additional tank. I did not lose any.

Good luck!

Which one are you referring to? All 18 of those made It past the 21 day mark and then some. They were slowly released over a period of about 7 days. If anything I think the father was new and didn’t know enough to encourage the fry to exit. It was funny, as you can probably see it in the longer video, the fry were so developed that they were eating the brine shrimp from inside the fathers mouth! Too funny. But no, all healthy and developed. I don’t see what you’re seeing...

 

[Gotfrogs]

I had the sane thought as Tom. He may be from an earlier batch. I managed to have a single baby survive to adult size in my overflow on my 280 with zero intervention from me. Good luck!

 

[Tom@HaslettMI]

Which one are you referring to? All 18 of those made It past the 21 day mark and then some. They were slowly released over a period of about 7 days. If anything I think the father was new and didn’t know enough to encourage the fry to exit. It was funny, as you can probably see it in the longer video, the fry were so developed that they were eating the brine shrimp from inside the fathers mouth! Too funny. But no, all healthy and developed. I don’t see what you’re seeing...

I was referring to @Smarkow photo of the lone baby in the sump.

 

[pdisner]

I was referring to @Smarkow photo of the lone baby in the sump.

Oh i see...So you just had the one clutch? What happened? Did one of them die off?

 

[pdisner]

Hey yeah! I didn’t even notice that! But you’re totally right. I can tell as well. It’s not a clear picture, but there’s no yolk sac visible, not even a hint. But its a little bit distorted.
I was wondering too, which one is he father? There’s only two and the big one looks gravid, with the darkened lower abdomen, but hard to tell?
So an you give us all the answer to those questions?

 

[pdisner]

Hey yeah! I didn’t even notice that! But you’re totally right. I can tell as well. It’s not a clear picture, but there’s no yolk sac visible, not even a hint. But its a little bit distorted.
I was wondering too, which one is he father? There’s only two and the big one looks gravid, with the darkened lower abdomen, but hard to tell?
So an you give us all the answer to those questions?

Smartcow?

 

[Tom@HaslettMI]

Both parents are still alive. I moved my reef to the basement when we had our hardwood floors refinished. While in the basement they had a couple clutches but dad never kept them. The tank is back on the main floor now and I plan to get them back in breeding condition.

 

[pdisner]

I forgot to tell you, instead of Chaeto for them to hide in, which is too much of a trapping hazard, Ive got a better idea which I found in a textbook on breeding. Make a fake long-spine urchin. It’s kinda like the clowfish-anemone relationship in the way that the fry already know that it’s a safe haven. They will flock to that before anything else. You can buy a fake plastic urchin in any pet store, but I prefer making my own. So take some small size zip ties and some reef-safe putty. Roll into a 1 inch ball, flatten one side on a table and push each tie in, female side first obviously, making it look like an urchin. They’ll all flock to it right away, like second nature.

 

[pdisner]

I forgot to tell you, instead of Chaeto for them to hide in, which is too much of a trapping hazard, Ive got a better idea which I found in a textbook on breeding. Make a fake long-spine urchin. It’s kinda like the clowfish-anemone relationship in the way that the fry already know that it’s a safe haven. They will flock to that before anything else. You can buy a fake plastic urchin in any pet store, but I prefer making my own. So take some small size zip ties and some reef-safe putty. Roll into a 1 inch ball, flatten one side on a table and push each tie in, female side first obviously, making it look like an urchin. They’ll all flock to it right away, like second nature.

And while looking at this picture, it reminded me to tell you, they take awhile to grow to a size where you can put in a community tank or sell or trade with fellow reefers.

 

[pdisner]

I had the sane thought as Tom. He may be from an earlier batch. I managed to have a single baby survive to adult size in my overflow on my 280 with zero intervention from me. Good luck!

That’s usually how most people find them. They can survive for a small period of time without food, because they carry around a yolk for like the first 7-10 days. You’ll notice this in the video above.

 

[pdisner]

Both parents are still alive. I moved my reef to the basement when we had our hardwood floors refinished. While in the basement they had a couple clutches but dad never kept them. The tank is back on the main floor now and I plan to get them back in breeding condition.

Awesome man!this is great that more and more people are learning about how to propagate their own fish. Hey Tom, as I stated to the author of this thread, I do an extensive amount of research when I take on a new species of fish that I want to breed. So I’ve got a bunch of PDFs on all the specifics of Breeding Bangaiis. Just shoot me a PM with your email address or on Facebook, you can get ahold of me on my VLOG/breeding page @PaulsPodsAZ. It’s a 40-50 page that goes over everything you’ll need to know, written by the university of Hawaii.

 

[pdisner]

If anyone wants a copy of the Bangaii breeding pdf either post email here or send me a pm