Randy's Tank and Learn Thread

[sixty_reefer]

I have a theory about the hair algae problem. Both, hair algae and cyanos prefer fresh substrates rich in nutrients (fact, not theory). When for example corals are dying, I think more often cyano and hair algae are the result and not the cause of the problems. I think this is the case here too.

The green coralline algae you have shown some weeks ago are no different species but it is a patch of dead coralline algae. Some of the pigments break down faster and this made it appear dark green. Also the brown batches on your rocks are dead coralline algae that may have died recently. It may or may not be a consequence of the antibiotic treatment. Coralline algae live, like many other algae, in symbiosis with bacteria and archaea for vitamins etc.. Also, at least in their pigments, red algae are very similar to cyanobacteria. Maybe they share other biochemical characteristics also.

The dead coralline algae are fresh substrate enriched and very rich in nutrients. Coralline algae are rich in nutrients "by nature". The GHA are just making use of these nutrients and are the first colonizers. It is a partial "initial phase". After the GHA have used up the nutrients they most likely would disappear like at the end of an initial phase.

This is in my eyes the best explanation I can give about the GHA problem.

Are you referring to nutrients and organic compounds already assimilated and synthesised by the coralline algae? Similar to cold pressed seaweed extracts used in horticulture, where pre existing organic compounds are released from algal tissue. As algae die, cellular breakdown releases these compounds, while microbial remineralisation makes nitrogen and phosphorus available again. Could this localised nutrient recycling contribute to the gha and other nuisances growth?

 

[jonelder68]

Yes, it's under consideration.

Will it eat long algae?

Yes from what my LFS has for a GHA holding tank for them they don’t discriminate and eat all and any GHA. But if the GHA has cyano or any other mix they seem to avoid it.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Yes from what my LFS has for a GHA holding tank for them they don’t discriminate and eat all and any GHA. But if the GHA has cyano or any other mix they seem to avoid it.

Well, no cyano that I can see. This sounds promising. The two refugia also have plenty. There is also chaeto and some ulva growing strong in one of them. Maybe I can shift the balance toward macroalgae.

 

[tripdad]

I have had good luck with blue hypnia(sp) macro. Grew like a weed for me right in the display. Plus its an often missing color in most displays. Same with dragons breath macro.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Are you referring to nutrients and organic compounds already assimilated and synthesised by the coralline algae? Similar to cold pressed seaweed extracts used in horticulture, where pre existing organic compounds are released from algal tissue. As algae die, cellular breakdown releases these compounds, while microbial remineralisation makes nitrogen and phosphorus available again. Could this localised nutrient recycling contribute to the gha and other nuisances growth?

Maybe it’s a change in symbiont density or chlorophyll content rather than just microbial remineralisation.

 

[jonelder68]

Well, no cyano that I can see. This sounds promising. The two refugia also have plenty. There is also chaeto and some ulva growing strong in one of them. Maybe I can shift the balance toward macroalgae.

I consider sea hares last ditch effort. I’d try some (2-3) tuxedo urchins first unless you’re just over it and want a quick fix? The urchins do an amazing job as well. I consider them the conchs of the rocks. Plus you have an abundance of coralline they could survive on after clearing out the GHA.

No cuc in the refugiums I’m assuming also? I have 2 turbos in each of mine to keep it clean along with some blue leg hermits that climb up on the macros. They do a great job. Along with some trochus for some free cuc babies.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I consider sea hares last ditch effort

I think that the risk of a catastrophe always outweighs their use, at least for me.

That said, I never had much luck using refugia or ATS to control nuisance algae in the tank. Manual removal, urchins and turbo snails have always been my go-to, and time.

 

[Marc G-L]

Hi Randy,
I have an UNS R120 with a Sicce SDC9 as a return pump based on my LFS recommendation. At first I thought way too powerful. 6 months later, perfect. I keep it a 14% power. So, I get quiet, efficient use of electricity and it has a built in features like temp reporting and dry running alert/stop. More importantly as my Neg space arrangement corals grow, I won't need a new pump, plus when I do heavy cleanings, I ramp it up to 85-100% flow and the debris is quickly moved to my socks.

As far as equipment planning, I suggest a large battery back up w/ a power converter unless you go with direct DC pumps (no power blocks) (do not go UPS too short run time) and/or those 2amp Lithium ion air pumps that trigger when power from the wall fails @ $20 each. I have the two port kind attached to wide body air stones. They aeriate like skimmers, one set in the fuge compartments two in DT. They last @ 4 days continuously using intermittent flow , 15 sec on, 15 sec off. If you want you can run the DT stones just once a week to keep them from clogging and avoid weekly build up of salt creep from the bubbles.

Best of Luck to you,

Marc Green-Lowe

 

[jonelder68]

I think that the risk of a catastrophe always outweighs their use, at least for me.

That said, I never had much luck using refugia or ATS to control nuisance algae in the tank. Manual removal, urchins and turbo snails have always been my go-to, and time.

Mines not risk just the fact many get one and then keep it for it starve. If there isn’t a local LFS that “rents them” I feel it’s better left out of the equation. But then there’s the risk of bringing in disease without QT as it’s passed around amongst local reefers

refugiums work great to maintain parameters. Not sure its effectiveness on avoiding algae’s or uglies?

Agree. Key is to get it cleaned out then have cuc, biome, and bacteria find its balance and equilibrium. Run the tank at the parameters you want, maintain that, and then find the proper balance that maintains it. Hard part is overdoing the cuc trying to fix it when it’s best done manually and having cuc maintain your removal. I think the urchins be a great fit for Randy’s tank since they can clean out the GHA and then have coralline to eat after vs starving.

If I was to guess from Randy’s tank his sandbed is loaded in nutrients. With low flow and auto pellet feeding I’m sure it’s saturated. Some conchs would be great additions also. Possible even loaded in killed off bacteria from the chemi clean. Though many argue that it doesn’t kill off nitrifying bacteria I believe differently. That biome definitely takes a hit from the treatment. Or other theory you killed off the cyano loaded in nutrients and now it’s decaying releasing its nutrients to fuel algae. Either way…it will take some time to build up the tank biome to match the supply of nutrients feeding the algae’s. You see how many people with Dino’s go from it. Beat it and Ya! Then comes cyano and then GHA. It’s all the die off from the previous fueling the next opportunistic plague. Just my opinion/experience from this newest tank start up. The mixuture of above paired with a “sludge/clean up” eating bacteria like TM nitribiotic is how my tank got out of a year long Dino’s, then cyano, the GHA circle of life repeating cycle.

Oh and lastly if the fuges pod population looks good! Tank is good!

If the population/visual is low I always know something’s coming. Highly undervalued cuc

 

[Dan_P]

Hair Algae

I may need to rethink my husbandry if these new snails do not make some headway on the GHA. It’s getting worse, not better. I may consider vinegar dosing the way I did on my last tank. I never had such issues with it.

I also never dosed trace elements that way I do now with the AFR. I might be just driving it too much. Last tank I mostly just dosed kalk and fish food and vinegar, and while it was by no means perfect, neither cyano nor gha was ever this bad.

Late to the show. Sorry to see such a development. The periphyton to this point was beautiful.

No microscopy work on this growth?

The two circled areas in the photo seem to exhibit more than algae growth. The top circle looks like alga filaments matted down with slime, my first guess is cyanobacteria but probably a complex population of species. Is it stressed algae that can’t stop overgrowth or overgrowth stressing the algae?

The lower circled area reminds me of Lyngbya (sp) but could just be another type of algae. Hard to tell from the photo.

I saw your list of contributing factors for algae growth and Hans’ ideas. I thought Coralline was suppose to prevent such hair algae growth, though I would not describe the new periphyton hair algae growth. It is too complex and messy looking.

 

[jonelder68]

Late to the show. Sorry to see such a development. The periphyton to this point was beautiful.

No microscopy work on this growth?

The two circled areas in the photo seem to exhibit more than algae growth. The top circle looks like alga filaments matted down with slime, my first guess is cyanobacteria but probably a complex population of species. Is it stressed algae that can’t stop overgrowth or overgrowth stressing the algae?

The lower circled area reminds me of Lyngbya (sp) but could just be another type of algae. Hard to tell from the photo.

I saw your list of contributing factors for algae growth and Hans’ ideas. I thought Coralline was suppose to prevent such hair algae growth, though I would not describe the new periphyton hair algae growth. It is too complex and messy looking.

Agree…it’s more than GHA and probably why fish and cuc aren’t eating it up. I see a slime layer on the GHA which cuc won’t touch if so/or select few/combination. Randy says no but under the scope will definitely show what’s what.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I have had good luck with blue hypnia(sp) macro. Grew like a weed for me right in the display. Plus its an often missing color in most displays. Same with dragons breath macro.

I bought some of that last year, but ulva outcompeted it.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Late to the show. Sorry to see such a development. The periphyton to this point was beautiful.

No microscopy work on this growth?

The two circled areas in the photo seem to exhibit more than algae growth. The top circle looks like alga filaments matted down with slime, my first guess is cyanobacteria but probably a complex population of species. Is it stressed algae that can’t stop overgrowth or overgrowth stressing the algae?

The lower circled area reminds me of Lyngbya (sp) but could just be another type of algae. Hard to tell from the photo.

I saw your list of contributing factors for algae growth and Hans’ ideas. I thought Coralline was suppose to prevent such hair algae growth, though I would not describe the new periphyton hair algae growth. It is too complex and messy looking.

It’s possible that some places have some other organisms in it, but in person it is almost totally dominated by long green algae. :)

 

[Dan_P]

I have a theory about the hair algae problem. Both, hair algae and cyanos prefer fresh substrates rich in nutrients (fact, not theory). When for example corals are dying, I think more often cyano and hair algae are the result and not the cause of the problems. I think this is the case here too.

The green coralline algae you have shown some weeks ago are no different species but it is a patch of dead coralline algae. Some of the pigments break down faster and this made it appear dark green. Also the brown batches on your rocks are dead coralline algae that may have died recently. It may or may not be a consequence of the antibiotic treatment. Coralline algae live, like many other algae, in symbiosis with bacteria and archaea for vitamins etc.. Also, at least in their pigments, red algae are very similar to cyanobacteria. Maybe they share other biochemical characteristics also.

The dead coralline algae are fresh substrate enriched and very rich in nutrients. Coralline algae are rich in nutrients "by nature". The GHA are just making use of these nutrients and are the first colonizers. It is a partial "initial phase". After the GHA have used up the nutrients they most likely would disappear like at the end of an initial phase.

This is in my eyes the best explanation I can give about the GHA problem.

It would be interesting to explore the explanatory power of the hypothesis as we examine photographs of the same area months ago.

I think the old photos would show a few strands of algae beginning to cause the accumulation of surface material and as a consequence shading the Coralline. There might have been other surface growth like Chrysophytes. This shading weakened the Coralline’s ability to inhibit surface growth. Cyanobacteria was not involved to any great extent at this time. The area of algae growth and material accumulation continued to expand. What we are looking at now is an old population in transition as the next wave of epiphytes cover the algae growth. This is when the cyanobacteria films are becoming visible, possibly the organism tangling the algae filaments. I also think there is a substantial amount of dinoflagellates and diatoms accumulating on every filament of algae and cyanobacteria.

 

[RelaxingWithTheReef]

I greatly appreciate all input, but I'm not really seeing the dead coralline as a significant source. Most, if not all coralline is thriving, and the algae grows on it as well as anywhere. It also grows well on bare black plastic surfaces.

I suspect I have this total set of events that is driving it, with uncertainly relative contributions:

1. Plenty of N, P and trace elements. I'm feeding much more often (and more total) than I did in my old tank to keep fish such as the anthias thriving.

2. The algae got ahead of me and is now longer than my CUC wants to tackle. They apparently prefer to scrape glass and "bare" coralline on rocks.

3. Low flow to keep noise to a minimum. The now longer algae is slowing it down even more locally, allowing detritus to settle into the algae.

4. Low pH (compared to my last tank using kalk) which boosts available CO2.

5. Warm white light that is fairly bright.

I've been manually removing some, but it is harder than it sounds. lol

Turning down the light intensity is one easy effort that I will try when I'm home for an extended period to monitor.

I got a new set of snails and such a few weeks ago, but they are losing ground still.

i had thought my yellow tang and foxface would keep it under control, but no.

I agree with your suspicions. If I were to get into the Green Hair Algae business, I think a reasonable starting place would be:

Plenty of N, P and trace elements
Feeding much more often
Warm white light that is fairly bright
Low pH

I understand you like the warn color temperature, but maybe a temporary reduction in red and orange spectrum would be beneficial. Also my experience points to Fe, Mn, and maybe Zn really turbo charging algae growth.

When things get out of control I’ve had good luck with micro dosing Fluconazole. UV=off, remove GAC, and dosing 1/10 recommended. Repeat in 2-3 weeks as needed. Watch alkalinity consumption for indication of stress. While it’s likely not a permanent cure, my experience has been that it’s just enough to stop the growth and soften the algae. It can break the cycle, and allow the CUC to gain a much needed advantage.

 

[areefer01]

I have had decent luck with scarlet hermits for some algae types. I really don't know what type of algae I had at the time so can't say they will work here or not. But if you are looking for this to read about if others have success or not, here is what I found.

I'm not really a fan of hermits due to the risk of them taking out larger snails for their shells. Of course that could be mitigated, maybe, with random shells tossed in the display.

Hope your day is well.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Maybe it’s a change in symbiont density or chlorophyll content rather than just microbial remineralisation.

Almost funny.

 

[EnterName]

No microscopy work on this growth?

I've already scolded Randy for not owning one. At this point we should just set up a GoFundMe: "Help Randy See the Small Things"

 

[Dan_P]

I've already scolded Randy for not owning one. At this point we should just set up a GoFundMe: "Help Randy See the Small Things"

Randy is very good at seeing the big picture. Won’t the small things be a disruption?