Red Dragon return, thoughts a year later

[BradB]

I swapped out a Reeflo dart I had for a return almost 10 years. I thought I'd share some thoughts and get some suggestions from other owners.

1) This is super efficient. 100 watts is actually 100 watts drawn, not 100 watts after ACDC conversion or whatever. And it provides more flow than my 160 watt dart, which replaced a 230 watt Blueline, which itself was a relatively efficient pump.

2) The adjustment is more useful than I expected. With a Herbie style drain, I can dial my return to exactly 94 watts, so I have a full siphon with no water in the emergency stand pipe.

3) The downside is dealing with power failures. I had several, including me deliberately turning off the pump. It doesn't always restart on its own, at least not quickly and easily. I did lose power away from the house before I added a ups,and came home to a running tank. But it often tries to start at 94 watts, fails, cycles off and tries again when I am here. I need to lower it to 40 for it to start, then raise it slowly. This is a deal breaker if I am not home. A ups mitigates this somewhat, but as far as I know, there is no way to run this off pure DC power, so a decent size UPS only gives about an hour. A comparable costing Vectra backup should provide 10 times as long in theory.

4) So far, no leaks or maintenance issues. But it is hard to say much after only 1 year.

 

[Blue Spot Octopus]

I have heard that RD pumps are sensitive to power outages and spikes they can ruin the controller, very costly.

 

[shookONES]

#3 is such a huge detriment that would negate any positives. Tack on the astronomical price tag and, well, you won’t see me running one anytime soon. But if you’re happy, they sure do look pretty!

 

[mfinn]

I've had 2 RD3 pumps for several years and I have zero problems with mine.
There have been 3-4 power outages lasting from 6-7 hours to a couple days and both pumps restarted with the rest of the equipment as expected.
I looked into RD's before buying them and saw nothing of restarting issues.
As far as power spikes damaging the controller, any controller on any pump would be subject to damage from the right power surge.
Guess that's where GFI outlets come into play.

And during those several years I probably turned off my pumps 70-80 times for water changes, work on the tank or whatever.

 

[mfinn]

@slief

 

[92Miata]

#3 is such a huge detriment that would negate any positives. Tack on the astronomical price tag and, well, you won’t see me running one anytime soon. But if you’re happy, they sure do look pretty!

Yeah - the first time a <1 year old $900 pump didn't start after a power outage I'd be looking for a refund. Its amazing how well $50 pumps soft-start.



@BradB - Send it back.

 

[Snoopy 67]

There is a 2 year warranty on the pump, time to contact them. Like mfinn my pump soft starts after an outage.
I turn mine off weekly for water changes.

 

[jda]

In the mean time, I guess that you have flow pumps in the tank on a separate circuit to keep the fish breathing until somebody can restart the RD? Might be a good idea to have a heater and temp probe in the the tank too, instead of all in the sump.

Surge protectors are what you all are looking for with sensitive electronics, not GFCI. Some surges are good and some are terrible, so choose wisely. Most UPS have surge built in, but not all.

 

[BradB]

Yeah - the first time a <1 year old $900 pump didn't start after a power outage I'd be looking for a refund. Its amazing how well $50 pumps soft-start.

@BradB - Send it back.

Not so easy. I doubt they'd accept a return for a full refund and I doubt my credit card company would issue a chargeback. But even if that were the case, I'd need to find a replacement and undergo a fairly large plumbing project to switch over.

 

[BradB]

In the mean time, I guess that you have flow pumps in the tank on a separate circuit to keep the fish breathing until somebody can restart the RD? Might be a good idea to have a heater and temp probe in the the tank too, instead of all in the sump.

Surge protectors are what you all are looking for with sensitive electronics, not GFCI. Some surges are good and some are terrible, so choose wisely. Most UPS have surge built in, but not all.

The display tank has a heater and small power heads. A dead return while I am on vacation might be an issue (no dosing pump, reduced flow, no skimmer, no top off) but any other time is just an inconvenience.

 

[jda]

They should replace it if it is under warranty. ...if the new ones are good at restarting, then you are all set.

 

[Snoopy 67]

Contact Scott @ RE, I'm sure he would be able to help.

 

[h2so4hurts]

Not so easy. I doubt they'd accept a return for a full refund and I doubt my credit card company would issue a chargeback. But even if that were the case, I'd need to find a replacement and undergo a fairly large plumbing project to switch over.

You didn't plumb it with unions? I can switch to my back-up pump in 5 minutes if necessary.

I agree with others, if that thing isn't functioning 100% as expected for that price you should get them to fix it. You could buy 4 similarly sized vectras, varios, or reeflos for that price.

 

[BradB]

You didn't plumb it with unions? I can switch to my back-up pump in 5 minutes if necessary.

I agree with others, if that thing isn't functioning 100% as expected for that price you should get them to fix it. You could buy 4 similarly sized vectras, varios, or reeflos for that price.

It is plumbed with unions, but I didn't buy a 2nd red dragon for a back up. I did contact Red Dragon and they said a good cleaning might fix the problem.

 

[h2so4hurts]

It is plumbed with unions, but I didn't buy a 2nd red dragon for a back up. I did contact Red Dragon and they said a good cleaning might fix the problem.

That's what ecotech said when my L2 broke. I'd press them on it.

 

[robbyg]

I swapped out a Reeflo dart I had for a return almost 10 years. I thought I'd share some thoughts and get some suggestions from other owners.

1) This is super efficient. 100 watts is actually 100 watts drawn, not 100 watts after ACDC conversion or whatever. And it provides more flow than my 160 watt dart, which replaced a 230 watt Blueline, which itself was a relatively efficient pump.

2) The adjustment is more useful than I expected. With a Herbie style drain, I can dial my return to exactly 94 watts, so I have a full siphon with no water in the emergency stand pipe.

3) The downside is dealing with power failures. I had several, including me deliberately turning off the pump. It doesn't always restart on its own, at least not quickly and easily. I did lose power away from the house before I added a ups,and came home to a running tank. But it often tries to start at 94 watts, fails, cycles off and tries again when I am here. I need to lower it to 40 for it to start, then raise it slowly. This is a deal breaker if I am not home. A ups mitigates this somewhat, but as far as I know, there is no way to run this off pure DC power, so a decent size UPS only gives about an hour. A comparable costing Vectra backup should provide 10 times as long in theory.

4) So far, no leaks or maintenance issues. But it is hard to say much after only 1 year.

Thank you so much for this post. Your situation sounds exactly like mine. I was actually contemplating pulling the trigger on one of these as an Xmas gift to myself. After reading about the restart issue I think I will stick with my Reeflo Dart until they sort the issue out.

 

[slief]

We’ve sold thousands of Red Dragon RD3 pumps and ALL RD3’s soft start and automatically restart at the original set power after a power outage and the RD3’s have a very reliable track record.

While I’ve only encountered this particular issue with customers literally a few times, each time was the result of a lack of maintenance, buildup inside the pump and in one case, snails inside the pump. The controller has bi-directional communication with the motor and can sense blockages and friction as well as the pump pulling air based on the RPM’s and current draw. When the controller senses friction at startup it goes into protection mode and limits the power output to protect the motor and controller. Once the the controller detects a lack of friction, the motor will allow ramping to full power. In every case, the issue was resolved with a proper deep cleaning which entails taking the front cover (volute) off the pump by removing the 4 screws that hold it in. Then removing the impeller and soaking the motor, impeller and pump cover in straight household distilled vinegar for 10 minutes. After that, scrub the inside of the motor/magnet cavity with a tooth brush and scrub the impeller, pump cover and even pump body with a soft dish brush. When the cleaning is done, the parts should look like new. Then rinse and reassemble. The whole process including the 10 minute soak takes less then 15 minutes and should be part of routine maintenance. On skimmer pumps, I recommend doing this every 4-5 months and on return pumps ever 6-12 months depending on the system, dosing etc.

 

[Snoopy 67]

Hi Scott, A - OK in Big Sky Country?

 

[robbyg]

We’ve sold thousands of Red Dragon RD3 pumps and ALL RD3’s soft start and automatically restart at the original set power after a power outage and the RD3’s have a very reliable track record.

While I’ve only encountered this particular issue with customers literally a few times, each time was the result of a lack of maintenance, buildup inside the pump and in one case, snails inside the pump. The controller has bi-directional communication with the motor and can sense blockages and friction as well as the pump pulling air based on the RPM’s and current draw. When the controller senses friction at startup it goes into protection mode and limits the power output to protect the motor and controller. Once the the controller detects a lack of friction, the motor will allow ramping to full power. In every case, the issue was resolved with a proper deep cleaning which entails taking the front cover (volute) off the pump by removing the 4 screws that hold it in. Then removing the impeller and soaking the motor, impeller and pump cover in straight household distilled vinegar for 10 minutes. After that, scrub the inside of the motor/magnet cavity with a tooth brush and scrub the impeller, pump cover and even pump body with a soft dish brush. When the cleaning is done, the parts should look like new. Then rinse and reassemble. The whole process including the 10 minute soak takes less then 15 minutes and should be part of routine maintenance. On skimmer pumps, I recommend doing this every 4-5 months and on return pumps ever 6-12 months depending on the system, dosing etc.

Ok that's good to hear that it is rare but I am a man that is obsessed with reliability. Almost every tank Loss I have had in the past involved some kind of weak link issue.

If a snail gets into my Reeflo Dart the result is snail bits come raining out of my return lines and the pump keeps going on. So if I am on vacation and I get an alert that my flow has stopped or been reduced what can I do with the RD3 to fix the problem remotely? Can I go into full power or something and power my way out of it or does it mean that I must get the pump cleaned down?
Cleaning the pump is not something my wife or a Tank sitter can handle.

 

[slief]

Ok that's good to hear that it is rare but I am a man that is obsessed with reliability. Almost every tank Loss I have had in the past involved some kind of weak link issue.

If a snail gets into my Reeflo Dart the result is snail bits come raining out of my return lines and the pump keeps going on. So if I am on vacation and I get an alert that my flow has stopped or been reducesed what can I do with the RD3 to fix the problem remotely? Can I go into full power or something and power my way out of it or does it mean that I must get the pump cleaned down?
Cleaning the pump is not something my wife or a Tank sitter can handle.

These pumps are stupidly powerful and have the heaviest magnet of any comparable variable speed pump on the market. During normal operation snails won’t cause issues but if they work their way in during a power outage or when the pump is off and cause friction on the impeller during ramp up, the controller will do it’s job and protect itself and the pump from overload by going into limp mode until the issue is resolved or until the friction is reduced. And like you, I am I am obsessed with reliability but if I am spending that kind of money on a pump, I’d sleep much better knowing that it has some fail safes built in to protect itself. I also do what I can to mitigate issues with outages, brown outs and surges by running quality pure sine wave UPS’s on my electronic equipment. It’s money well spent knowing I don’t need to race out and fire up a generator during an outage let alone worry about surges from outages or brown outs killing my expensive equipment or my computers. It’s a small price to pay when we have tens of thousands invested in equipment and live stock.