Red Sea NO3:POX4X Real Time Review.

[jason2459]

I've not heard that before and I don't believe it to be true. What nutrients is this even supposed to apply to? Can't be nitrogen if you are feeding that one. Phosphate? Adding nitrate does not typically make bacteria begin to consume phosphate unless you are adding organic carbon too. Also, if that were it, GFO should work better for dinos as well, which it does not appear to.

Bacteria (in general, at least) are not limited in reef tanks by the availability of nitrate and phosphate until they are super low. That is why organic carbon dosing is capable of driving nutrients very low, becuase bacteria are limited by available organics, and they consume the inorganic nutrients that are available WHEN they have enough organic matter.

If we are talking about reducing trace metals, such as iron, I'm not sure adding nitrate is the best way to accomplish that.

I agree it's confusing to me. The dirty method suggests to stop water changes, stop skimmer or feed the skimmer's export back into the tank, remove any mechanical filters, etc. The clean method of course complete opposite. Vacuum everything constantly, reduce all nutrients to undetectable levels, etc. There's a decently long thread over at RC in the chem section just titled Dinoflagellates. It goes back on forth on what the current trend is. I think right now its the "dirty" method.

I've posted in it a couple times giving my experience with Dino along with a myriad of many of nuisance pests like GHA, cyano, and bryopsis. My experience has just been to maintain some patience, sanity, and consistency.


From my last post there


But I don't strive for clean or dirty and have no idea which I fall into. My parameters for nitrate and phosphates are low. But my sump is full of detritus I never touch. I don't use filter socks or other typical mechanical filtration. The flow in my display tank is setup now to keep detritus suspended until sucked down the overflow to my sump where it becomes food and home to many critters.

For exports:

• I harvest algae via an ATS
• I do ~1% automatic water changes daily exporting stuff.
• I've used vinegar for years and dosed ~100ml/day for 200g total water volume.
• I don't run mechanical filters besides a skimmer which I use for aerating the water and removing bacteria that has consumed nitrates and phosphates.

For imports:

• Carbon dosing via vinegar ~100ml/day. But recently experimenting with a vodka/vinegar mix dosing ~36ml/day.
• I dose limewater which was via ATO and right now experimenting with limewater dosing separate from my ATO.
• I add a small amount of Mg to that water change water. I need to reduce that amount.
• ~1% daily automatic water changes importing stuff
• I feed a lot. 4 times per day I have an automatic feeder dump some NLS Marine/AlgaeMax pellets. I hand feed 2-3x per day some meaty food maybe ~2-3 cubes worth. A sheet of nori per day. This brings in a lot of phosphates, trace elements, vitamins, minerals, etc. Plus increases urea dosing nitrates to my tank.

I didn't touch the dino's this time around and just watched them. Pictures of their peak and eventual decline earlier in this thread.


Edit: and to define a few things as that's kind of out of context and not a complete copy paste.

Nitrates have always been below 5ppm. Since testing with other nitrate kits that can detect below 5ppm my nitrates are constantly below 1ppm.
Phosphates are consistently around .03ppm and recently lower. My last test was ~ 0.01

Many of my results were posted recently in many test kit "shoot out" threads.

Vodka/vinegar mix are in a ratio mixed up to 690ml vinegar and 310ml of vodka based on TMZ's mix from the RedSea NOPOX thread exposing what's in it. No water added.

and my Mg supplement used to be Tech-m but switched a few years ago to a Mg Chloride/Sulfate I mix together myself now for cheaper. Using Randy's ratio for those using Kalk

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Adding back skimmate and such will likely help drive bacteria, and the bacteria may compete for space or some trace metals. I don't think adding inorganic nitrate will drive bacteria in most tanks, and I'd be surprised if it alone helps with dinos.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

FWIW, I made a comment to that thread, but I'll copy it here too:

I'm not sure I see a need to invoke a lot of special bacteria issues to explain most of the things folks see with dinos.

i certainly don't claim to be any sort of expert on dinos, and they truly are among the worst possible pests we get.

But that said, I'm not sure that all of the successful treatments (or nontreatments) don't simply work because they take away something important to the particular species of dinos that you have.

People should remember that dinos, like algae and most photosynthetic pests need ALL of a source of N, P, Fe, many other trace metals, light, space to grow on, etc.

Take away any ONE of them and the dinos will be gone.

The trick is to find which of those is easiest to reduce while still permitting an adequate amount for other tank inhabitants (since they too need ALL of these).

Keeping dirty tank and finding the dinos decline may simply mean high levels of bacteria that are present are out competing the dinos for some trace element.

Water changes bring back that trace element.

Keeping a super clean tank may be able to outcompete some dino species for N or P.

Lights out obviously takes away light.

Organic carbon dosing may drive some dinos if they are a species that can take up the organic you are dosing, BUT it does not always happen, obviously. In fact, driving bacterial growth (especially without water changes) can quickly use up trace elements and even possibly help reduce dinos. As noted, lots of folks have been organic carbon dosing for years without any dinos (myself included).

So what I'm wondering is if there are any methods that drive out dinos that CANNOT be explained by a reduction in some unknown trace metal(s) (or direct killing, such as a UV, or possibly hydrogen peroxide, which could be a trace element modifier too).

 

[Tim Gentry]

I've been using this product for a week and dropped my nitrates from 20 to almost 10 now. Prior to this I was using bio pellets but having too many problems with them. If this no3po4x continues to work well
It will mean an end to bio pellets for me.

 

[Bunnee911]

So, wouldn't a polypad take out iron?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So, wouldn't a polypad take out iron?

I'm not sure I understand the context of the question, but a Boyd Polyfilter can bind iron. It may not bind iron that is chelated already (such as certain types of dosed iron), or may do so fairly slowly.

 

[Tim Gentry]

tomorrow will be 2 weeks on this product and I'm now to 5 on nitrates. Wish I had found this stuff before.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

tomorrow will be 2 weeks on this product and I'm now to 5 on nitrates. Wish I had found this stuff before.

Have you tried other organic carbon dosing products, such as vinegar or vodka?

 

[Tim Gentry]

Have you tried other organic carbon dosing products, such as vinegar or vodka?

I was using Bio pellets for some time with mixed results. Had several problems with them and the last time I tested finally got nitrates down to about 20 ppm and was stuck there. I had seen and heard of vinager and vodka dosing but wasn't sure about trying those methods as it seemed there were a lot of opinions on correct dose and usage. The No3Po4x just seemed a little easier and got good results right away. It has some type of alcohol in it I'm sure and is probably similar to vodka dosing. I'm now about 4 weeks into it and when I tested for nitrates this morning I was between 0-5ppm. I'm using about 10ml daily now and have been for about a week. I started at about 15ml daily. I haven't noticed any side effect or problems generated by use of this product at this point and unless that changes in then immediate future I'm really happy with this stuff and will be ordering another bottle soon. compared to biopellets this stuff is very easy to use and effective. You could probably generate similar results with vodka.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I was using Bio pellets for some time with mixed results. Had several problems with them and the last time I tested finally got nitrates down to about 20 ppm and was stuck there. I had seen and heard of vinager and vodka dosing but wasn't sure about trying those methods as it seemed there were a lot of opinions on correct dose and usage. The No3Po4x just seemed a little easier and got good results right away. It has some type of alcohol in it I'm sure and is probably similar to vodka dosing. I'm now about 4 weeks into it and when I tested for nitrates this morning I was between 0-5ppm. I'm using about 10ml daily now and have been for about a week. I started at about 15ml daily. I haven't noticed any side effect or problems generated by use of this product at this point and unless that changes in then immediate future I'm really happy with this stuff and will be ordering another bottle soon. compared to biopellets this stuff is very easy to use and effective. You could probably generate similar results with vodka.

Thanks.

FWIW, NOPOX is mostly a mixture of acetic acid (vinegar) and ethanol (vodka).

 

[Reefnatic]

FWIW, NOPOX is mostly a mixture of acetic acid (vinegar) and ethanol (vodka).

Partially correct, you're missing a major component though that sets it apart.

 

[jason2459]

Partially correct, you're missing a major component though that sets it apart.

You mean the very small touch of Methanol to get past issues with transport and other legal issues with just being ethanol?

 

[NeverlosT]

My goal is to use NOPOX to bring down Nitrates but I hope to be able to discontinue the dosing once nitrates are low. I have a BioPellet reactor running, and honestly, I cannot claim that it has done a lick of good in the year that it has been active. My nitrates were sky high 30ppm before taking some more serious action than just water changes (vacuuming sumps/overflow/sand/fuge and 70% water change).

I want to get back to a system with a DSB in the refugium like my old one where nutrients were kept low and I didn't need to worry about carbon dosing. Ah the good old days.

I have been running NO3PO4X for 2 weeks now. I started with 5ppm Nitrates, I will test tonight and report back where they are now. 150g cube tank, 10ml per day.

 

[Roberto CRC]

A great tread. I would like to ask you some questions about it since I also use NoPox.

Since I started to add Nopox, the parameters have been achieved disminuios to No3 = 0 and PO4 = 0.16. Some of my corals died in the process, were among fraq of acros, plus one hammer and one hammer wall were closed and long bleached.

Currently with the parameters in No3 = 0 and PO4 = 0.16 I can say that corals as Montiphora Capricornis have started to grow again and to have corresponding color (purple and green). But the hammer have not yet been recovered and that can not be.

This is normal, have to give some time or any possible reaction to NoPox?

I live in Costa Rica and here products Red Sea is a bit complicated to get, I try to have a bottle of Nopox stored and ready to use, but I can do if NoPox I run and I can not find time to continue add, I can add Vodka and Vinegar? but that daily dose?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Partially correct, you're missing a major component though that sets it apart.

I'm not missing a major organic ingredient, but there are small amounts of methanol and isopropanol, about as much as is in denatured ethanol, which may be what they use to supply ethanol more cheaply.

 

[Lenny_S]

Partially correct, you're missing a major component though that sets it apart.

Wit the wink I'm going to guess you're talking about the price vs. just using vinegar/vodka

 

[Reefnatic]

I don't want to get too deep into it, but you guys are in the same debate you were in several years ago. I suggest you look into WHAT methanol does and it's cascading effects. Versus passing it off as a consequence of your 'smarter than the creator' type of knowledge. I'm sorry.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I don't want to get too deep into it, but you guys are in the same debate you were in several years ago. I suggest you look into WHAT methanol does and it's cascading effects. Versus passing it off as a consequence of your 'smarter than the creator' type of knowledge. I'm sorry.

Well, the organic molecules in it and the concentrations of them were identified in 2014, if that is what you mean by debating it.

As to some special benefit of methanol, we are all interested in hearing your thoughts on this.

 

[jason2459]

I would be as well. AFAIK its main use is for denaturing. If it has another major role I'm all ears. Or in the case of a forum all eyes.

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Look into the interactions of yeast in a marine environment.
Cmon Randy, I've said it to you before. Are you saying you're still giving the same old advice after having been presented new data?