Reefbreeder Paywall Feature good or bad?

[VintageReefer]

It seems that our difference is that you are not that bothered about subscription services and will just choose not to use them if you think they are overpriced / not necessary. My core issue is that I believe subscription models are fundamentally bad. So we'll likely not agree but fair enough!

I think we actually both agree but simply handle it / react different. Can we both agree we don’t like subscriptions?

(same as your assumption about it only being intented for short-term monthly use to decide if features are worth it before going for lifetime

Not an assumption, that was from RB.

- which I would refute by pointing out that this is how subscription models make money, by banking on a number of people forgetting to cancel).

For other things, that’s happened to me before. I was able to contact them (other companies) after I saw the charge and get it refunded and the subscription canceled

 

[exnisstech]

No thank you. I don’t want the premium features and I don’t want them built into my base price if I have a choice


It is not an evergrow. There is no equal light on the market in any country. The meridian is a 100% original light designed and built by reefbreeders


Nothing. We have all the features that always were there

Subscription is really just designed to try the new features for a small cost. It’s a rental fee lol 10$ a month to unlock for up to 3 lights. The other option is a one time fee of $200 to unlock premium for life, and if you sell your light and get another one down the line, you still will have premium unlocked. I think the price is high, so I’m glad it’s offered as optional instead of inflating the lights price

Btw this is what premium unlocks

Everything else is free, always has been and always will be. Including location based lunar schedule.

They aren’t charging for every new feature also. They recently added the intensity slider, which was going to be a premium bundled item, and they decided to publish it for free instead. They also are upgrading all new sold meridians to include Bluetooth control for free, and no cost increase. There are other items being added in the near future with cost increase as well. Stay tuned

There is nothing being offered that I need. I see acclimation mode which I think all lights should have if hardware supports it. The latest update adds a total intensity slider so now I don't even need an acclimation mode. Sure I have to adjust it myself but my life isn't so busy I don't have 3 minutes to do that. Fur those that are so busy I feel for you and hope some day you'll be able slow down and smell the roses.

These are completely camera friendly. One person with one model camera on who knows what setting had an issue sounded like it was related to refresh rate

This is not entirely correct. There have been some changes to the newer 45 vs the early 11. I have no knowledge of the other models. The problem has to do with drivers and timing which is way over my head. I did reach out to reefbreeders because I can not record video with my pixel 10 pro XL because I can not slow the shutter speed in video. To take stills I have to manual slow the shutter speed to 1/60 or slower to stop the screen flicker. Reefbreeders is aware and it sounds like they may be tweaking some things to help reduce that. I'll post the email from RB below when I asked about the issue. The issue is not present on my meridian 11. Originally I was told the 45 is the same as four 11s but that isn't actually correct or I wouldn't have issues with the 45 that I don't have with the 11. Fortunately I'm not a content creator so this is more of an annoyance than anything. But had I known the issue was present I may have saved my $1500 and just moved my photons over instead because I do like to video my tanks sometimes.

Email from reefbreeders.

 

[sl0th]

I think we actually both agree but simply handle it / react different. Can we both agree we don’t like subscriptions?

Not an assumption, that was from RB.


For other things, that’s happened to me before. I was able to contact them (other companies) after I saw the charge and get it refunded and the subscription canceled

Yeah I think we do.

My point about the assumption is we have to assume they are telling the truth (and won't change things / go back on their current truth later) or not.

From what I gather you dislike the subscription but fundamentally just don't mind as you won't purchase it and that's fair. For myself, it's important to be vocal when I dislike the approaches a company is taking, especially if I think it can become a slippery slope.

Either way, I feel like we have similar feelings and, as you said, simply handle it differently :)

 

[areefer01]

Biff says, "B-4"

Sally says , "Hit, you sank my battleship!"

 

[jabberkaycee]

Crazy. People are more upset at 3 non essential features being released with an optional cost, than they were when they weren’t available at all.

Not crazy at all. I just paid over $1200 for a Meridian light fixture and brackets. They have not even been on my tank of full three weeks. Now I find out that my lights support features that I don’t have access to unless I pay an additional fee. Features that are considered standard with other manufacturers in the same premium price point category. I realize that they made an announcement 18 months ago. I wasn’t shopping for a light fixture 18 months ago. I was shopping for one six weeks ago. I knew the features were coming, but I did not know there was going to be an extra fee for it until this week. If they had a notice on their website that says these are the features coming and here’s what it’s going cost you, then that would have went into my decision-making process.

I won’t pay for a premium subscription for future features that may or may not ever happen. So far the only thing in their premium subscription is what their competition offers as standard and not worthy of an $200 additional fee. If their research and development leads to some groundbreaking, new improvement, I’ll consider it. Until then, it’s a hard pass and I regret my purchase.

 

[TelegrahamTested LLC]

Not crazy at all. I just paid over $1200 for a Meridian light fixture and brackets. They have not even been on my tank of full three weeks. Now I find out that my lights support features that I don’t have access to unless I pay an additional fee. Features that are considered standard with other manufacturers in the same premium price point category. I realize that they made an announcement 18 months ago. I wasn’t shopping for a light fixture 18 months ago. I was shopping for one six weeks ago. I knew the features were coming, but I did not know there was going to be an extra fee for it until this week. If they had a notice on their website that says these are the features coming and here’s what it’s going cost you, then that would have went into my decision-making process.

I won’t pay for a premium subscription for future features that may or may not ever happen. So far the only thing in their premium subscription is what their competition offers as standard and not worthy of an $200 additional fee. If their research and development leads to some groundbreaking, new improvement, I’ll consider it. Until then, it’s a hard pass and I regret my purchase.

This page, populated, may have been helpful. https://reefbreeders.com/pages/premium-app

 

[jabberkaycee]

This page, populated, may have been helpful. https://reefbreeders.com/pages/

I signed up for their mailing list when I first started shopping for lights 6 weeks ago and at no time did I ever receive any communication about fees for additional features. Also, no where on that link mentions fees so it would have made no difference. Like I said, it’s not listed on their website.

 

[KrisReef]

Biff says, "B-4"

Sally says , "Hit, you sank my battleship!"

B-4?
“Bingo!”

 

[VintageReefer]

Not crazy at all. I just paid over $1200 for a Meridian light fixture and brackets. They have not even been on my tank of full three weeks. Now I find out that my lights support features that I don’t have access to unless I pay an additional fee. Features that are considered standard with other manufacturers in the same premium price point category. I realize that they made an announcement 18 months ago. I wasn’t shopping for a light fixture 18 months ago. I was shopping for one six weeks ago. I knew the features were coming, but I did not know there was going to be an extra fee for it until this week. If they had a notice on their website that says these are the features coming and here’s what it’s going cost you, then that would have went into my decision-making process.

I won’t pay for a premium subscription for future features that may or may not ever happen. So far the only thing in their premium subscription is what their competition offers as standard and not worthy of an $200 additional fee. If their research and development leads to some groundbreaking, new improvement, I’ll consider it. Until then, it’s a hard pass and I regret my purchase.

I feel for you, that must be frustrating if the info is new to you.

The point in my comment you quoted also has some history behind it. All I meant is that the meridian and its predecessor the photon, have never had the three premium software features at all and there was very little flak about it. Now that it’s released with an optional cost, there is more negativity than when it wasn’t available at all.

I do understand a lot of the flak is about the subscription / paywall concept more then the features themself.

I’m just poking a little for fun at the overall situation, not you, thinking to myself if they never developed the new features and never offered a premium option, it almost would have been better

 

[KrisReef]

I feel for you, that must be frustrating if the info is new to you.

The point in my comment you quoted also has some history behind it. All I meant is that the meridian and its predecessor the photon, have never had the three premium software features at all and there was very little flak about it. Now that it’s released with an optional cost, there is more negativity than when it wasn’t available at all.

I do understand a lot of the flak is about the subscription / paywall concept more then the features themself.

I’m just poking a little for fun at the overall situation, not you, thinking to myself if they never developed the new features and never offered a premium option, it almost would have been better

Again “Bingo!”

My agony with the development of modern products that require software that can be hidden from the consumer behind a paywall (Microsoft business model?) is frustrating since this kind of thing didn’t exist when I was a kid.

They have ruined my life with this kind of business tactics.

Is it immoral, or wicked, or just business?

 

[Biff0rz]

I used to be a ReefBreeders fanboy too. I own four of them. But I’ll be moving on to different lights.

For me, this isn’t about one stupid feature I don’t want to pay for. It’s about the idea behind the decision.

Real math: if their break-even on software costs is $199 lifetime for three lights, and we knew how many Meridians they’ve sold, we could pretty easily back into how much they’d need to add to each fixture to cover it. My guess is somewhere around $20 per light.

So the choice is basically:

A) Upset a large portion of your customer base with a subscription/lifetime-fee model that probably only gets maybe 5% adoption, based on the reaction in this poll.

Or…

B) Raise the price of each light by roughly $20, hear some grumbling, and move on - while still being around one-third the cost of comparable XR30s.

Option B seems like the obvious call.

Unfortunately, ReefBreeders doesn’t seem to be making many of those lately.

 

[BeanAnimal]

The reason option “B” is not being exercised is that it is neither a profit center nor predictable. With a subscription model, companies can realize recurring revenue while also being able to track, forecast, and plan around it.

This is not simply, “Hey, let’s charge a nominal recurring fee and earn a bit of extra money.” It is the handwriting on the wall that there is trouble on the horizon for many of these companies. There are too many products with overly long life cycles that fail to generate sufficient revenue, combined with too much competition and too few users. Something has to give.

 

[TelegrahamTested LLC]

For me, this isn’t about one stupid feature I don’t want to pay for. It’s about the idea behind the decision.

 

[Biff0rz]

The reason option “B” is not being exercised is that it is neither a profit center nor predictable. With a subscription model, companies can realize recurring revenue while also being able to track, forecast, and plan around it.

This is not simply, “Hey, let’s charge a nominal recurring fee and earn a bit of extra money.” It is the handwriting on the wall that there is trouble on the horizon for many of these companies. There are too many products with overly long life cycles that fail to generate sufficient revenue, combined with too much competition and too few users. Something has to give.

Then how do other companies do it successfully? perplexing

one note on this part-

Some of the Development Cost Is the Paywall​

They likely are using Stripe or some other platform (pay another fee to use) as all that is built-in. So they likely are paying for it via subscriptions vs capital investment up front.

 

[areefer01]

Then how do other companies do it successfully? perplexing

Maybe they are staffed accordingly? How many people deep is reefbreeder as a company? Is the app a side project being built up over time or is it treated as a true piece of software that follows the more common sdlc but on a smaller scale?

 

[Rocks reef]

No thank you. I don’t want the premium features and I don’t want them built into my base price if I have a choice


It is not an evergrow. There is no equal light on the market in any country. The meridian is a 100% original light designed and built by reefbreeders

That is not true. @TelegrahamTested LLC did extensive testing on a number of lights. Reefbreeders was blown out of the water by several, less expensive lights. This was based on spectrum. In fact, @Lousybreed Quanta Atlas and Helix were among the top rated lights on that list along with Reefi. They are not an "original" light, the spectrum is VERY similar to the old Vivaspect (spelling) fixtures. Even the "white" leds on the RBs are disappointing.
Once Luca has his panel lights available, I'm ditching the Meridians. I may go back to halides in the mean time, at least I know I will be getting a better spectrum from UV to Cyan. I do not like the overly blue spectrum they use to simply increase PAR. Yes, I know you can adjust the 'colors', but the 'blue' spectrum on the Meridian is quite narrow in comparison to other, better designed lights.

 

[Biff0rz]

Maybe they are staffed accordingly? How many people deep is reefbreeder as a company? Is the app a side project being built up over time or is it treated as a true piece of software that follows the more common sdlc but on a smaller scale?

I isn't a company-size or staffing issue.

Whether they build it in-house with engineers/product people, outsource it to a third party, or do some hybrid of both, it ultimately comes down to the same thing: it costs money to build and maintain software.

The question isn’t “how can a company their size do it?” The question is why they chose to recover that cost in a way that creates friction and resentment with existing customers instead of just baking it into the product price going forward.

Other companies do it because they treat the software as part of the product experience. ReefBreeders seems to be treating it like an add-on monetization layer, and that’s the part people are upset about (myself included).

 

[exnisstech]

I do not like the overly blue spectrum they use to simply increase PAR. Yes, I know you can adjust the 'colors', but the 'blue' spectrum on the Meridian is quite narrow in comparison to other, better designed lights.

I can't help but wonder if something besides the timing used to control the LEDs has been changes. I swear my new 45 has a bluish cast compared to my early 11. The tanks are in different rooms so I can't view them both at the same time. The meridian is over a tank next to one running a photon and i really prefer the photon. I haven't been able to get a nice crisp look like I have with the photon. Is be happy to get the 45 to mimic the 11 but even running the same schedule there looks like a blue cast to the water under the 45.

I don't known maybe it's because I haven't finished painting the wall. This is the difference between the meridian 44 and a photon 32 v2 pro. I just can't seem to get rid of that blue tint the water has. Coral colors look decent but the water looks blue to me. Maybe I'm crazy.
No filter used.

 

[TelegrahamTested LLC]

There is no equal light on the market in any country.

This is a bold statement that places value on categories that may not matter to some users. Like how you see acclimation.

That is not true.

Actually, I think it's true. I would be hard-pressed to find a light with such fragmented hardware, the volume of nickel-and-dimed cost adders, the inclusion of pay-to-play software features, and how strenuously the loyal users defend their purchase/acquisition. It'll grow coral. That's for sure, but given the above, I think @VintageReefer is spot on.

 

[VintageReefer]

That is not true. @TelegrahamTested LLC did extensive testing on a number of lights. Reefbreeders was blown out of the water by several, less expensive lights. This was based on spectrum. In fact, @Lousybreed Quanta Atlas and Helix were among the top rated lights on that list along with Reefi. They are not an "original" light, the spectrum is VERY similar to the old Vivaspect (spelling) fixtures. Even the "white" leds on the RBs are disappointing.
Once Luca has his panel lights available, I'm ditching the Meridians. I may go back to halides in the mean time, at least I know I will be getting a better spectrum from UV to Cyan. I do not like the overly blue spectrum they use to simply increase PAR. Yes, I know you can adjust the 'colors', but the 'blue' spectrum on the Meridian is quite narrow in comparison to other, better designed lights.

Hi @Rocks reef

What I said is 100% true. The light is not a evergrow rebranded, nor is it a rebrand from any other company. When you stand in front of a meridian you are seeing a light designed ground up by RB. I am not talking spectrum or features or anything besides the light itself, that was the context.

Spectrum charts represent capability of a light but keep in mind that the chart is only for all channels equally at 100% and many people are not running that over their tank. It is up to us to set our lights correctly for a balance between corals requirements and our viewing preferences.

Yes the fixtures are geared towards blue but that is because the par output of blue led vs a white led is much lower.

It takes more blue LEDs to get the par numbers we want, then it would from white. They are not using extra blue leds to increase output, they are there to increase usable par.

Every light will have pros and cons and pretty much all lights on the market will grow successfully. Many many people have excellent results with the photons and now meridans. Along with the other lights you mentioned as well. But there are tradeoffs which you will see, if you use them and it’s up to you to decide what’s important to you.