Reefbreeder Paywall Feature good or bad?

[areefer01]

Biff says, "B-4"

Sally says , "Hit, you sank my battleship!"

 

[jabberkaycee]

Crazy. People are more upset at 3 non essential features being released with an optional cost, than they were when they weren’t available at all.

Not crazy at all. I just paid over $1200 for a Meridian light fixture and brackets. They have not even been on my tank of full three weeks. Now I find out that my lights support features that I don’t have access to unless I pay an additional fee. Features that are considered standard with other manufacturers in the same premium price point category. I realize that they made an announcement 18 months ago. I wasn’t shopping for a light fixture 18 months ago. I was shopping for one six weeks ago. I knew the features were coming, but I did not know there was going to be an extra fee for it until this week. If they had a notice on their website that says these are the features coming and here’s what it’s going cost you, then that would have went into my decision-making process.

I won’t pay for a premium subscription for future features that may or may not ever happen. So far the only thing in their premium subscription is what their competition offers as standard and not worthy of an $200 additional fee. If their research and development leads to some groundbreaking, new improvement, I’ll consider it. Until then, it’s a hard pass and I regret my purchase.

 

[TelegrahamTested LLC]

Not crazy at all. I just paid over $1200 for a Meridian light fixture and brackets. They have not even been on my tank of full three weeks. Now I find out that my lights support features that I don’t have access to unless I pay an additional fee. Features that are considered standard with other manufacturers in the same premium price point category. I realize that they made an announcement 18 months ago. I wasn’t shopping for a light fixture 18 months ago. I was shopping for one six weeks ago. I knew the features were coming, but I did not know there was going to be an extra fee for it until this week. If they had a notice on their website that says these are the features coming and here’s what it’s going cost you, then that would have went into my decision-making process.

I won’t pay for a premium subscription for future features that may or may not ever happen. So far the only thing in their premium subscription is what their competition offers as standard and not worthy of an $200 additional fee. If their research and development leads to some groundbreaking, new improvement, I’ll consider it. Until then, it’s a hard pass and I regret my purchase.

This page, populated, may have been helpful. https://reefbreeders.com/pages/premium-app

 

[jabberkaycee]

This page, populated, may have been helpful. https://reefbreeders.com/pages/

I signed up for their mailing list when I first started shopping for lights 6 weeks ago and at no time did I ever receive any communication about fees for additional features. Also, no where on that link mentions fees so it would have made no difference. Like I said, it’s not listed on their website.

 

[KrisReef]

Biff says, "B-4"

Sally says , "Hit, you sank my battleship!"

B-4?
“Bingo!”

 

[VintageReefer]

Not crazy at all. I just paid over $1200 for a Meridian light fixture and brackets. They have not even been on my tank of full three weeks. Now I find out that my lights support features that I don’t have access to unless I pay an additional fee. Features that are considered standard with other manufacturers in the same premium price point category. I realize that they made an announcement 18 months ago. I wasn’t shopping for a light fixture 18 months ago. I was shopping for one six weeks ago. I knew the features were coming, but I did not know there was going to be an extra fee for it until this week. If they had a notice on their website that says these are the features coming and here’s what it’s going cost you, then that would have went into my decision-making process.

I won’t pay for a premium subscription for future features that may or may not ever happen. So far the only thing in their premium subscription is what their competition offers as standard and not worthy of an $200 additional fee. If their research and development leads to some groundbreaking, new improvement, I’ll consider it. Until then, it’s a hard pass and I regret my purchase.

I feel for you, that must be frustrating if the info is new to you.

The point in my comment you quoted also has some history behind it. All I meant is that the meridian and its predecessor the photon, have never had the three premium software features at all and there was very little flak about it. Now that it’s released with an optional cost, there is more negativity than when it wasn’t available at all.

I do understand a lot of the flak is about the subscription / paywall concept more then the features themself.

I’m just poking a little for fun at the overall situation, not you, thinking to myself if they never developed the new features and never offered a premium option, it almost would have been better

 

[KrisReef]

I feel for you, that must be frustrating if the info is new to you.

The point in my comment you quoted also has some history behind it. All I meant is that the meridian and its predecessor the photon, have never had the three premium software features at all and there was very little flak about it. Now that it’s released with an optional cost, there is more negativity than when it wasn’t available at all.

I do understand a lot of the flak is about the subscription / paywall concept more then the features themself.

I’m just poking a little for fun at the overall situation, not you, thinking to myself if they never developed the new features and never offered a premium option, it almost would have been better

Again “Bingo!”

My agony with the development of modern products that require software that can be hidden from the consumer behind a paywall (Microsoft business model?) is frustrating since this kind of thing didn’t exist when I was a kid.

They have ruined my life with this kind of business tactics.

Is it immoral, or wicked, or just business?

 

[Biff0rz]

I used to be a ReefBreeders fanboy too. I own four of them. But I’ll be moving on to different lights.

For me, this isn’t about one stupid feature I don’t want to pay for. It’s about the idea behind the decision.

Real math: if their break-even on software costs is $199 lifetime for three lights, and we knew how many Meridians they’ve sold, we could pretty easily back into how much they’d need to add to each fixture to cover it. My guess is somewhere around $20 per light.

So the choice is basically:

A) Upset a large portion of your customer base with a subscription/lifetime-fee model that probably only gets maybe 5% adoption, based on the reaction in this poll.

Or…

B) Raise the price of each light by roughly $20, hear some grumbling, and move on - while still being around one-third the cost of comparable XR30s.

Option B seems like the obvious call.

Unfortunately, ReefBreeders doesn’t seem to be making many of those lately.

 

[BeanAnimal]

The reason option “B” is not being exercised is that it is neither a profit center nor predictable. With a subscription model, companies can realize recurring revenue while also being able to track, forecast, and plan around it.

This is not simply, “Hey, let’s charge a nominal recurring fee and earn a bit of extra money.” It is the handwriting on the wall that there is trouble on the horizon for many of these companies. There are too many products with overly long life cycles that fail to generate sufficient revenue, combined with too much competition and too few users. Something has to give.

 

[TelegrahamTested LLC]

For me, this isn’t about one stupid feature I don’t want to pay for. It’s about the idea behind the decision.

 

[Biff0rz]

The reason option “B” is not being exercised is that it is neither a profit center nor predictable. With a subscription model, companies can realize recurring revenue while also being able to track, forecast, and plan around it.

This is not simply, “Hey, let’s charge a nominal recurring fee and earn a bit of extra money.” It is the handwriting on the wall that there is trouble on the horizon for many of these companies. There are too many products with overly long life cycles that fail to generate sufficient revenue, combined with too much competition and too few users. Something has to give.

Then how do other companies do it successfully? perplexing

one note on this part-

Some of the Development Cost Is the Paywall​

They likely are using Stripe or some other platform (pay another fee to use) as all that is built-in. So they likely are paying for it via subscriptions vs capital investment up front.

 

[areefer01]

Then how do other companies do it successfully? perplexing

Maybe they are staffed accordingly? How many people deep is reefbreeder as a company? Is the app a side project being built up over time or is it treated as a true piece of software that follows the more common sdlc but on a smaller scale?

 

[Rocks reef]

No thank you. I don’t want the premium features and I don’t want them built into my base price if I have a choice


It is not an evergrow. There is no equal light on the market in any country. The meridian is a 100% original light designed and built by reefbreeders

That is not true. @TelegrahamTested LLC did extensive testing on a number of lights. Reefbreeders was blown out of the water by several, less expensive lights. This was based on spectrum. In fact, @Lousybreed Quanta Atlas and Helix were among the top rated lights on that list along with Reefi. They are not an "original" light, the spectrum is VERY similar to the old Vivaspect (spelling) fixtures. Even the "white" leds on the RBs are disappointing.
Once Luca has his panel lights available, I'm ditching the Meridians. I may go back to halides in the mean time, at least I know I will be getting a better spectrum from UV to Cyan. I do not like the overly blue spectrum they use to simply increase PAR. Yes, I know you can adjust the 'colors', but the 'blue' spectrum on the Meridian is quite narrow in comparison to other, better designed lights.

 

[Biff0rz]

Maybe they are staffed accordingly? How many people deep is reefbreeder as a company? Is the app a side project being built up over time or is it treated as a true piece of software that follows the more common sdlc but on a smaller scale?

I isn't a company-size or staffing issue.

Whether they build it in-house with engineers/product people, outsource it to a third party, or do some hybrid of both, it ultimately comes down to the same thing: it costs money to build and maintain software.

The question isn’t “how can a company their size do it?” The question is why they chose to recover that cost in a way that creates friction and resentment with existing customers instead of just baking it into the product price going forward.

Other companies do it because they treat the software as part of the product experience. ReefBreeders seems to be treating it like an add-on monetization layer, and that’s the part people are upset about (myself included).

 

[exnisstech]

I do not like the overly blue spectrum they use to simply increase PAR. Yes, I know you can adjust the 'colors', but the 'blue' spectrum on the Meridian is quite narrow in comparison to other, better designed lights.

I can't help but wonder if something besides the timing used to control the LEDs has been changes. I swear my new 45 has a bluish cast compared to my early 11. The tanks are in different rooms so I can't view them both at the same time. The meridian is over a tank next to one running a photon and i really prefer the photon. I haven't been able to get a nice crisp look like I have with the photon. Is be happy to get the 45 to mimic the 11 but even running the same schedule there looks like a blue cast to the water under the 45.

I don't known maybe it's because I haven't finished painting the wall. This is the difference between the meridian 44 and a photon 32 v2 pro. I just can't seem to get rid of that blue tint the water has. Coral colors look decent but the water looks blue to me. Maybe I'm crazy.
No filter used.

 

[TelegrahamTested LLC]

There is no equal light on the market in any country.

This is a bold statement that places value on categories that may not matter to some users. Like how you see acclimation.

That is not true.

Actually, I think it's true. I would be hard-pressed to find a light with such fragmented hardware, the volume of nickel-and-dimed cost adders, the inclusion of pay-to-play software features, and how strenuously the loyal users defend their purchase/acquisition. It'll grow coral. That's for sure, but given the above, I think @VintageReefer is spot on.

 

[VintageReefer]

That is not true. @TelegrahamTested LLC did extensive testing on a number of lights. Reefbreeders was blown out of the water by several, less expensive lights. This was based on spectrum. In fact, @Lousybreed Quanta Atlas and Helix were among the top rated lights on that list along with Reefi. They are not an "original" light, the spectrum is VERY similar to the old Vivaspect (spelling) fixtures. Even the "white" leds on the RBs are disappointing.
Once Luca has his panel lights available, I'm ditching the Meridians. I may go back to halides in the mean time, at least I know I will be getting a better spectrum from UV to Cyan. I do not like the overly blue spectrum they use to simply increase PAR. Yes, I know you can adjust the 'colors', but the 'blue' spectrum on the Meridian is quite narrow in comparison to other, better designed lights.

Hi @Rocks reef

What I said is 100% true. The light is not a evergrow rebranded, nor is it a rebrand from any other company. When you stand in front of a meridian you are seeing a light designed ground up by RB. I am not talking spectrum or features or anything besides the light itself, that was the context.

Spectrum charts represent capability of a light but keep in mind that the chart is only for all channels equally at 100% and many people are not running that over their tank. It is up to us to set our lights correctly for a balance between corals requirements and our viewing preferences.

Yes the fixtures are geared towards blue but that is because the par output of blue led vs a white led is much lower.

It takes more blue LEDs to get the par numbers we want, then it would from white. They are not using extra blue leds to increase output, they are there to increase usable par.

Every light will have pros and cons and pretty much all lights on the market will grow successfully. Many many people have excellent results with the photons and now meridans. Along with the other lights you mentioned as well. But there are tradeoffs which you will see, if you use them and it’s up to you to decide what’s important to you.

 

[VintageReefer]

This is a bold statement that places value on categories that may not matter to some users. Like how you see acclimation.

Actually, I think it's true. I would be hard-pressed to find a light with such fragmented hardware, the volume of nickel-and-dimed cost adders, the inclusion of pay-to-play software features, and how strenuously the loyal users defend their purchase/acquisition. It'll grow coral. That's for sure, but given the above, I think @VintageReefer is spot on.

Your response is smug, but you are taking my words out of context. The photon was an evergrow fixture with a few changes and then rebranded as reefbreeders. The meridian is not. It is a 100% original design and not a clone/rebrand of anything else

 

[TelegrahamTested LLC]

They likely are using Stripe or some other platform (pay another fee to use) as all that is built-in. So they likely are paying for it via subscriptions vs capital investment up front.

This is a reasonable position. Thank you. I'll change the text.

 

[TelegrahamTested LLC]

Your response is smug, but you are taking my words out of context. The photon was an evergrow fixture with a few changes and then rebranded as reefbreeders. The meridian is not. It is a 100% original design and not a clone/rebrand of anything else

Totally smug, and I think you underestimate my use of categories. A light that's 100% from the ground up didn't need to mimic basic controls, a pre-existing spectrum, or use the mid-20teens tight spread, whether intentionally or not. Maybe my "Chinese chat app" led me astray?

And, yes, I know. The lenses are replaceable, but that's part of the nickel-and-dime thing. I guess available bars help with that, eh?