Regal Angel medical advice

[Thisisfine]

@vetteguy53081 @Jay Hemdal and anyone else with recommendations

I purchased a Regal Angel friday and placed into a 40b. Sunday I added a male bluethroat. This thread details everything up to today with requests for recommendations for food to a bulging eye. There are video observations for swimming habits and the eye.

I came home and prepared food this evening after work and he looks a bit worse. There are spots on his tail fin and one pectoral fin looked a little frayed. I plan to do a freshwater dip to rule out flukes. Here's the questions:

Caveat - I've never QT'd or treated and learned the hard way halfway through 2023 when Jay helped me with how to take the 120DT into hypo. Trying to do things properly this time around.

I pulled a 20long from the attic and have 15g salt made up. I've just made enough RODI to fill a blue bucket to ~6-8inches.

1 - Once I place the angel in the FW for 5 min, does he go directly back into the QT or do I have to worry about acclimation?

2 - If flukes are confirmed do I also need to transfer the trigger into the 20 long?

3 - can I treat with general cure or use prazi?

4 - If flukes are confirmed - do I need to also treat the original 40g QT?

5 - If flukes are not confirmed - any recommendations? Just throw into the 20g with fresh salt mix and see what happens? Note - the only thing nearby is petsmart so no maricyn, only maricyn oxy. I just got back from purchasing another hob filter, heater, air pump, air stone, thermometer etc. for the additional QT.

I'm not very optimistic but need to try.

Thanks!

 

[Jay Hemdal]

@vetteguy53081 @Jay Hemdal and anyone else with recommendations

I purchased a Regal Angel friday and placed into a 40b. Sunday I added a male bluethroat. This thread details everything up to today with requests for recommendations for food to a bulging eye. There are video observations for swimming habits and the eye.

I came home and prepared food this evening after work and he looks a bit worse. There are spots on his tail fin and one pectoral fin looked a little frayed. I plan to do a freshwater dip to rule out flukes. Here's the questions:

Caveat - I've never QT'd or treated and learned the hard way halfway through 2023 when Jay helped me with how to take the 120DT into hypo. Trying to do things properly this time around.

I pulled a 20long from the attic and have 15g salt made up. I've just made enough RODI to fill a blue bucket to ~6-8inches.

1 - Once I place the angel in the FW for 5 min, does he go directly back into the QT or do I have to worry about acclimation?

2 - If flukes are confirmed do I also need to transfer the trigger into the 20 long?

3 - can I treat with general cure or use prazi?

4 - If flukes are confirmed - do I need to also treat the original 40g QT?

5 - If flukes are not confirmed - any recommendations? Just throw into the 20g with fresh salt mix and see what happens? Note - the only thing nearby is petsmart so no maricyn, only maricyn oxy. I just got back from purchasing another hob filter, heater, air pump, air stone, thermometer etc. for the additional QT.

I'm not very optimistic but need to try.

Thanks!

Hi, to be honest, too many people have already weighed in on that thread. It is exhausting to try and sort out who has said what, refute the incorrect advice, sort out what advice you’ve tried, etc.

Regal angels are delicate and difficult to acclimate to captivity. Even with a proper quarantine process, you are going to see a high failure rate with this species. Cyanide collection is the primary cause for this.

Our standard quarantine protocol works fine for this species, as long as the fish is solid to begin with:

Current Quarantine Protocol

2023 Quarantine Procedures Jay Hemdal David Scarborough Protozoans (Cryptocaryon/ich, Amyloodinium/velvet) and Metazoan trematodes/flukes are by far the most common parasites found on newly acquired fish. A carefully managed quarantine process can effectively eliminate these parasites before...

www.reef2reef.com

You can buy some time with a FW dip, but I use those mostly as a diagnostic tool. Here is the write up for that:

Freshwater Dips

“Freshwater dips” (FW Dips) are commonly used to dislodge certain parasites from the skin of marine fishes. This is more of a diagnostic tool, and less of a permanent cure. Dips can be used to lower the parasite load temporarily, while waiting for another treatment to begin. Looking at the...

www.reef2reef.com

Setting up a quarantine on the fly is very difficult to do properly. If you have sufficient seeded filter media to use, that makes the process more likely to succeed.

Jay

 

[vaguelyreeflike]

1. For freshwater dips I don’t acclimate them back, as this just prolongs the stress. It doesn’t seem to be long enough to shock them osmotically to go right back to freshwater. Use harder water for the freshwater dip to lessen the possibility of PH related shock, I use dechlorinated tap water as our tap water is quite hard here. Biggest thing is ensuring the temperature isn’t drastically different (less than a 3-5 degree difference is ideal), and watching the breathing to ensure it remains even throughout the dip. Panic and listlessness is normal during FW dips, but irregular breathing is not.

2. If flukes are confirmed, assume that every fish in the tank has it. The DT will need to be fallowed for I believe 30-40 days to fully eradicate the surviving flukes, bringing it to hypo will speed it up however. Prazipro is safe for DT though, so you can treat everyone in the DT (might lose some types of worms like feather dusters), I would just do a double dose right off the bat as I’ve found it more effective than the recommended dose.

3. I would use Prazipro and then general cure if it doesn’t work after 2 weeks, however someone else may be able to advice this part better as I haven’t used general cure for flukes before.

4. I would treat the fish in the DT for flukes, for cig or velvet though the QT tank is ideal.

5.if no confirmed flukes, put suspected fish in QT to observe for at least 2-3 weeks and you can even try the black Molly method, mollies will show signs of ich/velvet/flukes etc wayyy sooner than any saltwater fish. Acclimate them slowly for best results. Keep fish well fed during this like 2+ times a day to keep them strong.

Hopefully all of this is good advice! I’m sure someone will correct me if it isn’t, this is just how I do it and have seen decent results over the last 6 months

 

[Thisisfine]

Hi, to be honest, too many people have already weighed in on that thread. It is exhausting to try and sort out who has said what, refute the incorrect advice, sort out what advice you’ve tried, etc.

Regal angels are delicate and difficult to acclimate to captivity. Even with a proper quarantine process, you are going to see a high failure rate with this species. Cyanide collection is the primary cause for this.

Our standard quarantine protocol works fine for this species, as long as the fish is solid to begin with:

Current Quarantine Protocol

2023 Quarantine Procedures Jay Hemdal David Scarborough Protozoans (Cryptocaryon/ich, Amyloodinium/velvet) and Metazoan trematodes/flukes are by far the most common parasites found on newly acquired fish. A carefully managed quarantine process can effectively eliminate these parasites before...

www.reef2reef.com

You can buy some time with a FW dip, but I use those mostly as a diagnostic tool. Here is the write up for that:

Freshwater Dips

“Freshwater dips” (FW Dips) are commonly used to dislodge certain parasites from the skin of marine fishes. This is more of a diagnostic tool, and less of a permanent cure. Dips can be used to lower the parasite load temporarily, while waiting for another treatment to begin. Looking at the...

www.reef2reef.com

Setting up a quarantine on the fly is very difficult to do properly. If you have sufficient seeded filter media to use, that makes the process more likely to succeed.

Jay

Thanks @Jay Hemdal and no worries!

I think on the medical side only vette weighed in recommending moving to a fresh QT once the eye bulge showed up and treating with maricyn and noting other potential causes could be flukes. All other advice was regarding feeding.

Today the spots on the trail and a bit of fraying on a pectoral were observed. I’m going forward with the dip and new qt. I have seeded media that i have placed in a hob filter and some bacteria in a bottle.

To your point, they are difficult fish so it may be what it is but I figure I should at least try to see if I can help it. If it doesn’t succeed at least I’ll have the materials and knowledge if needed for a more hardy species in the future.

 

[Thisisfine]

1. For freshwater dips I don’t acclimate them back, as this just prolongs the stress. It doesn’t seem to be long enough to shock them osmotically to go right back to freshwater. Use harder water for the freshwater dip to lessen the possibility of PH related shock, I use dechlorinated tap water as our tap water is quite hard here. Biggest thing is ensuring the temperature isn’t drastically different (less than a 3-5 degree difference is ideal), and watching the breathing to ensure it remains even throughout the dip. Panic and listlessness is normal during FW dips, but irregular breathing is not.

2. If flukes are confirmed, assume that every fish in the tank has it. The DT will need to be fallowed for I believe 30-40 days to fully eradicate the surviving flukes, bringing it to hypo will speed it up however. Prazipro is safe for DT though, so you can treat everyone in the DT (might lose some types of worms like feather dusters), I would just do a double dose right off the bat as I’ve found it more effective than the recommended dose.

3. I would use Prazipro and then general cure if it doesn’t work after 2 weeks, however someone else may be able to advice this part better as I haven’t used general cure for flukes before.

4. I would treat the fish in the DT for flukes, for cig or velvet though the QT tank is ideal.

5.if no confirmed flukes, put suspected fish in QT to observe for at least 2-3 weeks and you can even try the black Molly method, mollies will show signs of ich/velvet/flukes etc wayyy sooner than any saltwater fish. Acclimate them slowly for best results. Keep fish well fed during this like 2+ times a day to keep them strong.

Hopefully all of this is good advice! I’m sure someone will correct me if it isn’t, this is just how I do it and have seen decent results over the last 6 months

Much appreciated. Both are in a 40g QT right now so if it is flukes I can just start a Prazi treatment in there. *wishes I considered that before buy redundant equipment for a second QT a little while ago* ho hum. If it's not flukes I may still move the angel over to a fresher set up. I have it blacked out on 3 sides to help with stress anyway.

I have the FW aerating right now with a heater so hopefully it should be a smooth transition.

To Jay's point - these fish are notoriously difficult to acclimate and come with the likelihood of cyanide poisoning so this just may be one of the majority of cases.

 

[Thisisfine]

This is a bit of the freshwater dip. Unfortunately the aeration knocked some trapped salt from the crevices of the heater. I watched but specifically from 3-4 minutes nothing fell from the fish. From the video you can see some of the pectoral fraying and maybe spots. This may be just what it is, another example of regals be it from collection process or just plain difficulty to acclimate. Not sure there’s much else to do.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

This is a bit of the freshwater dip. Unfortunately the aeration knocked some trapped salt from the crevices of the heater. I watched but specifically from 3-4 minutes nothing fell from the fish. From the video you can see some of the pectoral fraying and maybe spots. This may be just what it is, another example of regals be it from collection process or just plain difficulty to acclimate. Not sure there’s much else to do.

I don't see any Neobenedenia flukes in the video. Other flukes, like gill flukes are to small to see without a microscope. The fish is breathing faster than I would like to see, even with the additional stress of a FW dip. Did the breathing slow down appreciably once it was returned to the tank?

That eye is pretty seriously damaged, alone, that can put a fish off feed.

Jay

 

[Thisisfine]

Thanks for looking into this for me Jay. He didn't make it through the night. He had a high respiration rate the entire time I had him in QT and to my knowledge had not taken food since being introduced Friday (12/29).

Went into it after doing previous research knowing it was an uphill battle and a lower likelihood of success (though I wish I had seen your Fish to Avoid list and knew about the cyanide capture for these guys first). Figured I'd shoot my shot. Now I know and won't be going down that road again - I'll stick with the hardier species with a greater chance of long term success.

Now I need to work on a huge nutrient spike in the QT likely from trying so many foods to get that guy to eat. I had been doing 25% WC every other day but skipped last night to set up a quick 20g hospital tank in case I needed to move him over.

Thanks again!

I don't see any Neobenedenia flukes in the video. Other flukes, like gill flukes are to small to see without a microscope. The fish is breathing faster than I would like to see, even with the additional stress of a FW dip. Did the breathing slow down appreciably once it was returned to the tank?

That eye is pretty seriously damaged, alone, that can put a fish off feed.

Jay