HomebroodExotics
Well-Known Member
Wow that chart shows ammonia increased after the water change and clean for 15 days! (If I'm reading it correctly). That's interesting imo.
Request for a study: origins of the common cycling chart
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@brandon429
here's what I found on your question.
This chart is repeated in a bunch of iterations all over the web. A few of them credit "Spotte"
This likely refers to Stephen Spotte.
from Randy's Ammonia article... Ammonia and the Reef Aquarium
"Many studies have examined ammonia's conversion to nitrite, and many articles have been written for professional and hobby aquarists that detail various practical aspects of the process, such as how to set up appropriate filters to facilitate this process. Stephen Spotte covers these in great detail in two of his books.6,7"
6. Captive seawater fishes: Science and technology. Spotte, Stephen; John Wiley & Sons, New York, 1992 ISBN 0-471-54554-6.
7. Seawater Aquariums: The Captive Environment. Spotte, Stephen; John Wiley & Sons, NY 1972 ISBN 0471056650.
As I don't have access to either book, this is where the trail dries up for me. But if somebody has these books they might find a chart like what you are thinking about, that has spawned a million derivative diagams.
(would be cool if it was in the 1972 book.)
here's what I found on your question.
This chart is repeated in a bunch of iterations all over the web. A few of them credit "Spotte"
This likely refers to Stephen Spotte.
from Randy's Ammonia article... Ammonia and the Reef Aquarium
"Many studies have examined ammonia's conversion to nitrite, and many articles have been written for professional and hobby aquarists that detail various practical aspects of the process, such as how to set up appropriate filters to facilitate this process. Stephen Spotte covers these in great detail in two of his books.6,7"
6. Captive seawater fishes: Science and technology. Spotte, Stephen; John Wiley & Sons, New York, 1992 ISBN 0-471-54554-6.
7. Seawater Aquariums: The Captive Environment. Spotte, Stephen; John Wiley & Sons, NY 1972 ISBN 0471056650.
As I don't have access to either book, this is where the trail dries up for me. But if somebody has these books they might find a chart like what you are thinking about, that has spawned a million derivative diagams.
(would be cool if it was in the 1972 book.)
Perturbation Initiated System Spike, lol
OP
OP
Seneye collective results must now be factored into future understandings of inherent ammonia control timing in reefing. what's amazing about the charts is how that day ten ~ control drop is not really different chart to chart, last 40+ years, and in fact any large group of seneye-charted cycles shows all of them ready before that date. usually in a few days when the common bottle bac brands are used, regardless of variation in setup approach.
sum takeway: in reef tank cycling, there is an inherent link/predictability in completion date, cycles don't stick nor stall given the common ways people setup cycling and this is indicated in any large group of seneye tanks posted online, I would think the seneye facebook page or some of their corporate data would be a truly valuable trove of cycling information if we could get at those logs. the inherent consistency vs inconsistency of reef tank cycling is directly against all the sales models that currently teach us about cycling: fear the stall, buy another round of bac.
at no time does a water change post cycle cause an ammonia rise from lack of bacteria, especially on seneye. non digital test kits are subject to all kinds of adulteration/name your confound but it's not a temp loss of cycle control. I have threads where someone simply relocated reef rocks and was stuck above 1.0 ppm on api for days, which can't happen and has never happened on a single tuned seneye unit in a reef display. there are instances of misreading seneyes, skipped slide preps and untrimmed models, hence the descriptive for tuned or calibrated models.
a trimmed or calibrated seneye is one that reads within spec nh3 (.001-.007~) on a running normally stocked display, and then that unit + it's slide is transferred over to a cycling tank to inspect or is used on that display itself to discern impacts and changes in cycle control
sum takeway: in reef tank cycling, there is an inherent link/predictability in completion date, cycles don't stick nor stall given the common ways people setup cycling and this is indicated in any large group of seneye tanks posted online, I would think the seneye facebook page or some of their corporate data would be a truly valuable trove of cycling information if we could get at those logs. the inherent consistency vs inconsistency of reef tank cycling is directly against all the sales models that currently teach us about cycling: fear the stall, buy another round of bac.
at no time does a water change post cycle cause an ammonia rise from lack of bacteria, especially on seneye. non digital test kits are subject to all kinds of adulteration/name your confound but it's not a temp loss of cycle control. I have threads where someone simply relocated reef rocks and was stuck above 1.0 ppm on api for days, which can't happen and has never happened on a single tuned seneye unit in a reef display. there are instances of misreading seneyes, skipped slide preps and untrimmed models, hence the descriptive for tuned or calibrated models.
a trimmed or calibrated seneye is one that reads within spec nh3 (.001-.007~) on a running normally stocked display, and then that unit + it's slide is transferred over to a cycling tank to inspect or is used on that display itself to discern impacts and changes in cycle control
HomebroodExotics
Well-Known Member
So why exactly are you looking for charts if they are all wrong already and you already have the correct information? Make yourself a new chart it sounds like is what you are looking for.
Anything that you find with timeframes will likely be correct and reasonable for what was happening at the time. First, people back them used to get a damsel, engineer goby or some other hardy fish, feed it sparingly and let it's gut bacteria start to colonize. Second, these folks were likely using a more strict meaning of cycle than today where a ecosystem had to be created and then the whole biom able to dynamically react to changes. Cycle today seems to mean "probably safe for some fish."
I don't have any old magazines, but all of the books I have still hold up today. They don't make up new terms, put skip- in front of some of them and otherwise develop straw-man arguments, but if you ready what they want to happen, it is 100% accurate today. After all, biology and chemistry has not changed in our lifetimes.
Pay attention to much literature that says cycling and not cycled... they understood that it was a non-complete process when they studied just this part.
Even live rock tanks were never considered cycled for some time. They were "probably ok to have some fish." The dry sand and lace rock tanks took the longer timeframes that you see in much of this literature with the definitions of the time. Raise your hand if you remember lace rock in saltwater tanks?
I don't have any old magazines, but all of the books I have still hold up today. They don't make up new terms, put skip- in front of some of them and otherwise develop straw-man arguments, but if you ready what they want to happen, it is 100% accurate today. After all, biology and chemistry has not changed in our lifetimes.
Pay attention to much literature that says cycling and not cycled... they understood that it was a non-complete process when they studied just this part.
Even live rock tanks were never considered cycled for some time. They were "probably ok to have some fish." The dry sand and lace rock tanks took the longer timeframes that you see in much of this literature with the definitions of the time. Raise your hand if you remember lace rock in saltwater tanks?
OP
OP
what I'm meaning by cycled is that on a seneye, or an api experiment ran by T or D or R, ammonia drops and doesn't come back up in the known timeframes/stays cycled based on the common expectations we have for bioload carry. the date you can add fish and not look back, the date you can run water changes as much as possible and not undo things, a date of certainty vs a date of open-ended wait to simply begin reefing in a setup that was prior not ready.
regarding live rock cycle skip cycling, we build systems worth thousands of dollars on day one like that/ corals + fish and inverts that back in the day would have been advised to wait months to combine
there's big money and life on the line in predictive cycle completion science, to have a viable completion date equal to the date of tank assembly is very advanced and not covered much in the literature I've seen. these links here were excellent, what MNFish posted was just amazing and nice for once not to be a teaser abstract but the full monty/I rarely see that on science article relays.
maturation/agreed = ongoing but people want a definitive date they can trust their biofilter to simply not stall, stick, undo, fail to carry the fish they paid for. I like to have concise and consistent end date studies so my peers don't go buying six rounds of bottle bac using the old rules, I feel like they've been tricked in recent decades on the science and especially anything regarding stalls: I didn't make the hopeful due date for my bioload carry/the bacteria didn't make the timing the charts show and the studies show using the common means.
the cycle chart for a live rock transfer skip cycle, cured live rock not ocean rock, is an ammonia flatline from start to finish, no rise. all the other charts have a rise and fall...that's very neat science in the matter for sure. we don't have enough digital nitrite tests in the hobby to chart that aspect: I predict it's a flatline as well. nitrate might even be a down curve for some settings, a totally reversed cycling chart to the norm when dealing in cured live rock tank relocation cycles / buy some live rock at petco/ move it home/you're done and aged at the same time.
The entire show Tanked was using rather updated cycling science as well, doesn't matter what we think of the ethics of stocking 100 tangs at once, they never faltered on predictive start date biofilter control (using aged media in the hidden filters plus the exact sand Taricha just proved was live plus their bottle bac which Dr Reef showed was viable = skip cycle ability)
regarding live rock cycle skip cycling, we build systems worth thousands of dollars on day one like that/ corals + fish and inverts that back in the day would have been advised to wait months to combine
there's big money and life on the line in predictive cycle completion science, to have a viable completion date equal to the date of tank assembly is very advanced and not covered much in the literature I've seen. these links here were excellent, what MNFish posted was just amazing and nice for once not to be a teaser abstract but the full monty/I rarely see that on science article relays.
maturation/agreed = ongoing but people want a definitive date they can trust their biofilter to simply not stall, stick, undo, fail to carry the fish they paid for. I like to have concise and consistent end date studies so my peers don't go buying six rounds of bottle bac using the old rules, I feel like they've been tricked in recent decades on the science and especially anything regarding stalls: I didn't make the hopeful due date for my bioload carry/the bacteria didn't make the timing the charts show and the studies show using the common means.
the cycle chart for a live rock transfer skip cycle, cured live rock not ocean rock, is an ammonia flatline from start to finish, no rise. all the other charts have a rise and fall...that's very neat science in the matter for sure. we don't have enough digital nitrite tests in the hobby to chart that aspect: I predict it's a flatline as well. nitrate might even be a down curve for some settings, a totally reversed cycling chart to the norm when dealing in cured live rock tank relocation cycles / buy some live rock at petco/ move it home/you're done and aged at the same time.
The entire show Tanked was using rather updated cycling science as well, doesn't matter what we think of the ethics of stocking 100 tangs at once, they never faltered on predictive start date biofilter control (using aged media in the hidden filters plus the exact sand Taricha just proved was live plus their bottle bac which Dr Reef showed was viable = skip cycle ability)
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If that is what you think is a cycle, then nothing ever published will need to be compared to this. That is something totally different than a cycle/cycled. That just means that a tank can process some ammonia for whatever load that it has. It is a small part of a real cycle. I know that you love to make up terms, so make up a new one for this that does not involve a word that means something else entirely. I might recommend Bumfuzzle - an underused word that could now mean that your tank is at a spot where you can not see any ammonia from the load that you currently have.
Bumfuzzle: adjective | 1). confuse, preplex, fluster 2). new aquarium state where no ammonia is read from the existing bioload. | Sue's tank is in the bumfuzzle phase where her two clownfish have not shown any ammonia in a week. Sue was bumfuzzled when people on the internet told he that her tank was cycled and she added a bunch of new fish to their demise.
If you use live rock or established filters from another tank, then we can have a skip-bumfuzzle.
The next small part that needs defined can be called a teradiddle.
Nobody can define other's expectation, even if common.
Perhaps, rather than trying to give people a timeframe or date, then educate them as to what needs to happen and educate that dates and timeframes are a fools errand. This is as dumb as the helicopter parents all freaked out if their kid does not walk before their 11 month birthday or cannot figure out calculus by 13 years old... neither of which mean anything except in their heads with nothing good to come, but plenty of bad.
The only trickery that is happening is redefining terms, pretending that nature has old and new ways or otherwise building up strawmen with half-arguments or half-wit.
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OP
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I don't make up terms, I run multi hundreds of pages work threads where we build tanks and they run on the date I say they'll run. you work from a comfy spot, nothing on the line outbound. accountable for not much-but has access to very very good testing eq no doubt there. I can't recall the last time you made a call for someone that might not turn out well/something on the line.
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this is right where you begin to try and wreck my threads, like the time you got my prior cycling thread shut down with incessant attacks/make your own thread/exit if you will.
can I simply request that you not troll destroy this thread? Look how friendly it's been, until just now when you posted. I usually don't click to open your posts, burns happen. Thought it might be different just once. I'm sure you'll be given a completely free pass to destroy it if you want, but Ill never do that to yours.
don't you have some big reefing company to go take down and destroy and report to the feds? = the m.o.
can I simply request that you not troll destroy this thread? Look how friendly it's been, until just now when you posted. I usually don't click to open your posts, burns happen. Thought it might be different just once. I'm sure you'll be given a completely free pass to destroy it if you want, but Ill never do that to yours.
don't you have some big reefing company to go take down and destroy and report to the feds? = the m.o.
LOL, but the chart from MnFish1 I reposted on post#14 totally vindicates API(your main target), does it not?
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Sure it's vindicated totally you just spotted the one detail that undoes every cycling thread I've ever ran or made predictions in. I expect all my future cycles to now not work out. The end of updated cycling science is nigh
Like I’ve told you many many times, when converted to NH3 with pH etc etc, the toxic form is low. What’s so hard to remember about that?
OP
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Reason I started this thread: discern the approximate start date for aquatic cycling science with friends. Nobody was pressed for anything, it's a friendly sampling from the peer ntwk
MN wins for most helpful, thorough, on point post with shocking relevancy. I hope you win a sizeable scratch off one day kind Sir. I'm still rereading those two articles you linked. You caught Dans eye too, well done.
MN wins for most helpful, thorough, on point post with shocking relevancy. I hope you win a sizeable scratch off one day kind Sir. I'm still rereading those two articles you linked. You caught Dans eye too, well done.
I am trying to help you help people. I assume that you do want to help, even if your current methods are a bit misguided. If you do not want it, then that is cool, but you will continue to get pushback from not just me, just as you have in the past. You are wrong about too many things. The things that you do get right were mostly going to happen anyway.
Here is the help again in simple terms: if you really want to help, then never say cycled again to describe what I quoted above. At a minimum, say that they are perhaps through the first step of a cycle. This will bring questions about what step is next to wit you can offer some nuance and knowledge about what is happening next. This is real help.
I know that you have not figured this out yet, but the only thing that separates "new science" and "old science" is your mangling of the terms. Again, for the hundredth time, biology and chemistry has not changed in our lifetimes. What worked when "old cycling science" was happening is the same as today.
This is a bonus tip, but stop saying I and my... those other people did all of the work and you just typed. Real leaders use terms like us and we while giving all of the credit to the others. When you say that "I ran" and "my cycles," it looks like it is all about you and this is a bad look if you are wanting collaboration and the benefit of the doubt from most.
Here is the help again in simple terms: if you really want to help, then never say cycled again to describe what I quoted above. At a minimum, say that they are perhaps through the first step of a cycle. This will bring questions about what step is next to wit you can offer some nuance and knowledge about what is happening next. This is real help.
I know that you have not figured this out yet, but the only thing that separates "new science" and "old science" is your mangling of the terms. Again, for the hundredth time, biology and chemistry has not changed in our lifetimes. What worked when "old cycling science" was happening is the same as today.
This is a bonus tip, but stop saying I and my... those other people did all of the work and you just typed. Real leaders use terms like us and we while giving all of the credit to the others. When you say that "I ran" and "my cycles," it looks like it is all about you and this is a bad look if you are wanting collaboration and the benefit of the doubt from most.
OP
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right now some furious googling is happening for some terms I made up lol skip cycle/rip clean/ et al. latch onto a company and don't let go until they're taken down, I don't have anything for sell and I don't mislead anyone. if I do, we're sure to see some reports of crashed tanks any minute now. I can't thank you enough for showing up here.
*we still do not dose ammonia to 2 ppm in any cycle I've ran since you got that inspection thread stopped. I must've assembled 450 new cycles using testless means by now, still goin' strong no sign of stopping. inbox so full of jobs I can't get to them all= accountability.
*we still do not dose ammonia to 2 ppm in any cycle I've ran since you got that inspection thread stopped. I must've assembled 450 new cycles using testless means by now, still goin' strong no sign of stopping. inbox so full of jobs I can't get to them all= accountability.
Since you mentioned this, I will always fight for the hobby. Liars and people who intentionally harm the hobby with products that violate the law have been a target for me, and others. Hobby first. While I in NO WAY think that there is any lying happening in your posts nor intent to harm, there is harm that is done, even if you cannot see it. Your involvement could be so much better with some more knowledge and a different approach.
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I am truly glad I got to see MN's contribution before the clockwise swirl started. that was an amazing set of articles, you pulled them like they were in your back pocket MN
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