Ruby Longfin Wrasse Not Looking Good

[DocRose]

I've had my Ruby Longfin in QT for 19 days now. He and three others (Yellow Wrasse, Melanurus Wrasse, and Red Madarin Dragonet) arrived on October 4th. QT is a 20 gallon with three tupperware containers with sand, a dialed down MP10, a HOB filter, and established live rock. (If/When I have to medicate I'll be removing the rock.) For the first 7 days everyone was doing fine. After the 7th day, the Yellow Wrasse stopped coming out of the sand. I've heard many reasons why sand dwelling wrasse will do this, and that they can do it for weeks at a time. I'm a little concerned about him, but I'm trying to be patient. The Melanurus and Dragonet are doing great. They go to sleep at night, swim around all day, and eat during feedings. For the first 10-12 days, the Ruby Longfin was the same way. However, after about the 12th day something's not right.

When I came down shortly after lights on, I found him laying upside down on the bottom of the glass between one of the tupperware containers and the glass. That was strange to me because for the first week and a half he slept in the rocks. He didn't seem to be breathing heavy, and was completely upside down. During feeding he swam up, straight up and down. He was able to right himself and swim normally for a few seconds, but then would go back to being vertical. After a few moments he would go back upside down, slightly curled and floated back to the bottom between the container and glass.

This has gone on for the past 7 days. Being upside down laying at the bottom at all times until feeding. Then he tries hard to swim up to eat, and ultimately ends up curled, upside down, floating back to the bottom. I haven't tried any treatments or medications yet. And as mentioned before two of the other three are doing fine, and the fourth never comes out of the sand. Videos below were taken a day or two apart, with the last video being the most recent.

 

[MnFish1]

I might get @Jay Hemdal's opinion he has written an article about newly acquired wrasse disease - which is neurologic - and incurable. Of course your fish may have another issue (swim bladder, etc). But - sitting upside-down is never a positive IME

 

[vetteguy53081]

I've had my Ruby Longfin in QT for 19 days now. He and three others (Yellow Wrasse, Melanurus Wrasse, and Red Madarin Dragonet) arrived on October 4th. QT is a 20 gallon with three tupperware containers with sand, a dialed down MP10, a HOB filter, and established live rock. (If/When I have to medicate I'll be removing the rock.) For the first 7 days everyone was doing fine. After the 7th day, the Yellow Wrasse stopped coming out of the sand. I've heard many reasons why sand dwelling wrasse will do this, and that they can do it for weeks at a time. I'm a little concerned about him, but I'm trying to be patient. The Melanurus and Dragonet are doing great. They go to sleep at night, swim around all day, and eat during feedings. For the first 10-12 days, the Ruby Longfin was the same way. However, after about the 12th day something's not right.

When I came down shortly after lights on, I found him laying upside down on the bottom of the glass between one of the tupperware containers and the glass. That was strange to me because for the first week and a half he slept in the rocks. He didn't seem to be breathing heavy, and was completely upside down. During feeding he swam up, straight up and down. He was able to right himself and swim normally for a few seconds, but then would go back to being vertical. After a few moments he would go back upside down, slightly curled and floated back to the bottom between the container and glass.

This has gone on for the past 7 days. Being upside down laying at the bottom at all times until feeding. Then he tries hard to swim up to eat, and ultimately ends up curled, upside down, floating back to the bottom. I haven't tried any treatments or medications yet. And as mentioned before two of the other three are doing fine, and the fourth never comes out of the sand. Videos below were taken a day or two apart, with the last video being the most recent.

Im on my home PC today and cant get any movies to play.
Preliminary, it sounds like possible spine issue which some wrasses do get but before assuming this, 4 in a 20 gallon. . . . what is your ammonai-nitrate-ph-salinity ?
What filters are you using in quarantine ?

Add aeration with use of an air stone for starters and consider medicating tank with either Praziquantel or even ruby rally pro

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I've had my Ruby Longfin in QT for 19 days now. He and three others (Yellow Wrasse, Melanurus Wrasse, and Red Madarin Dragonet) arrived on October 4th. QT is a 20 gallon with three tupperware containers with sand, a dialed down MP10, a HOB filter, and established live rock. (If/When I have to medicate I'll be removing the rock.) For the first 7 days everyone was doing fine. After the 7th day, the Yellow Wrasse stopped coming out of the sand. I've heard many reasons why sand dwelling wrasse will do this, and that they can do it for weeks at a time. I'm a little concerned about him, but I'm trying to be patient. The Melanurus and Dragonet are doing great. They go to sleep at night, swim around all day, and eat during feedings. For the first 10-12 days, the Ruby Longfin was the same way. However, after about the 12th day something's not right.

When I came down shortly after lights on, I found him laying upside down on the bottom of the glass between one of the tupperware containers and the glass. That was strange to me because for the first week and a half he slept in the rocks. He didn't seem to be breathing heavy, and was completely upside down. During feeding he swam up, straight up and down. He was able to right himself and swim normally for a few seconds, but then would go back to being vertical. After a few moments he would go back upside down, slightly curled and floated back to the bottom between the container and glass.

This has gone on for the past 7 days. Being upside down laying at the bottom at all times until feeding. Then he tries hard to swim up to eat, and ultimately ends up curled, upside down, floating back to the bottom. I haven't tried any treatments or medications yet. And as mentioned before two of the other three are doing fine, and the fourth never comes out of the sand. Videos below were taken a day or two apart, with the last video being the most recent.

That is a pretty clear case of the UNWD. It is discussed in this thread:

Unknown Neurological Wrasse Disease (UNWD)

Unknown Neurological Wrasse disease (UNWD) There is a disease that afflicts newly acquired wrasses, usually Cirrhilabrus fairy wrasses or flasher wrasses, Pseudocheilinus, but occasionally other species as well. The gross visual symptoms are always the same; the fish shows a rapid onset of...

www.reef2reef.com

It is incurable (at least in moderate to advanced cases like this) and so far, the cause is not known - sorry!

One other observation - it is pretty risky to just hold fish in a quarantine without treatment. You should go "all in" right away. The issue is that if a disease shows up, you may miss the early symptoms, and curing an active disease is a lot more difficult than preventing one. Also, if nothing seems to show up and you put the fish into your DT, you'll have a pretty good chance of moving a latent disease over with them (unless you isolate the new fish for 6+ months, then the risk is nil).

Jay

 

[Mr. Mojo Rising]

adding 4 fish at the same time into a 20 gallon is not something I would ever do or suggest to do. Are monitoring ammonia? Is the tank properly oxiginated?

 

[DocRose]

Im on my home PC today and cant get any movies to play.
Preliminary, it sounds like possible spine issue which some wrasses do get but before assuming this, 4 in a 20 gallon. . . . what is your ammonai-nitrate-ph-salinity ?
What filters are you using in quarantine ?

Add aeration with use of an air stone for starters and consider medicating tank with either Praziquantel or even ruby rally pro

Ammonia - 0
Salinity - 1.020
I'll test the pH and NO3 a little later today.
No filters other than the HOB with standard media and the live rock.

I was under the impression that if you have good surface agitation (the HOB and MP10) that air stones were only necessary in QT when using meds. And I was also informed that wrasse don't take well to Prazi treatment.

That is a pretty clear case of the UNWD. It is discussed in this thread:

Unknown Neurological Wrasse Disease (UNWD)

Unknown Neurological Wrasse disease (UNWD) There is a disease that afflicts newly acquired wrasses, usually Cirrhilabrus fairy wrasses or flasher wrasses, Pseudocheilinus, but occasionally other species as well. The gross visual symptoms are always the same; the fish shows a rapid onset of...

www.reef2reef.com

It is incurable (at least in moderate to advanced cases like this) and so far, the cause is not known - sorry!

One other observation - it is pretty risky to just hold fish in a quarantine without treatment. You should go "all in" right away. The issue is that if a disease shows up, you may miss the early symptoms, and curing an active disease is a lot more difficult than preventing one. Also, if nothing seems to show up and you put the fish into your DT, you'll have a pretty good chance of moving a latent disease over with them (unless you isolate the new fish for 6+ months, then the risk is nil).

Jay

Thanks. I had heard about this new neurological concern, but I wasn't sure what the signs were.

As far as treatment, I've heard from both sides (treating just because, and observing and treating if necessary). Both sides have pros and cons. I just opted to go with the observe first route. I work from home so my eyes are on this tank every couple of hours watching the fish.

adding 4 fish at the same time into a 20 gallon is not something I would ever do or suggest to do. Are monitoring ammonia? Is the tank properly oxiginated?

Your LFS houses way more than 4 fish in their 10 gallon "for sale" display tanks and will keep them in there for much longer than a 30 day QT. So no, there's nothing wrong with these four small fish being in this 20 gallon just for QT. Yes I monitor the ammonia; and with a HOB filter with a surface skimmer and a MP10 yes, there is plenty of surface agitation for oxygenation.

 

[vetteguy53081]

That is a pretty clear case of the UNWD. It is discussed in this thread:

Unknown Neurological Wrasse Disease (UNWD)

Unknown Neurological Wrasse disease (UNWD) There is a disease that afflicts newly acquired wrasses, usually Cirrhilabrus fairy wrasses or flasher wrasses, Pseudocheilinus, but occasionally other species as well. The gross visual symptoms are always the same; the fish shows a rapid onset of...

www.reef2reef.com

It is incurable (at least in moderate to advanced cases like this) and so far, the cause is not known - sorry!

One other observation - it is pretty risky to just hold fish in a quarantine without treatment. You should go "all in" right away. The issue is that if a disease shows up, you may miss the early symptoms, and curing an active disease is a lot more difficult than preventing one. Also, if nothing seems to show up and you put the fish into your DT, you'll have a pretty good chance of moving a latent disease over with them (unless you isolate the new fish for 6+ months, then the risk is nil).

Jay

I said spine- Meant nuerological which I learned from a certain person (grin)

 

[vetteguy53081]

Ammonia - 0
Salinity - 1.020
I'll test the pH and NO3 a little later today.
No filters other than the HOB with standard media and the live rock.

I was under the impression that if you have good surface agitation (the HOB and MP10) that air stones were only necessary in QT when using meds. And I was also informed that wrasse don't take well to Prazi treatment.



Thanks. I had heard about this new neurological concern, but I wasn't sure what the signs were.

As far as treatment, I've heard from both sides (treating just because, and observing and treating if necessary). Both sides have pros and cons. I just opted to go with the observe first route. I work from home so my eyes are on this tank every couple of hours watching the fish.



Your LFS houses way more than 4 fish in their 10 gallon "for sale" display tanks and will keep them in there for much longer than a 30 day QT. So no, there's nothing wrong with these four small fish being in this 20 gallon just for QT. Yes I monitor the ammonia; and with a HOB filter with a surface skimmer and a MP10 yes, there is plenty of surface agitation for oxygenation.

With HOB, you are providing mechanical filtration only and yes, you want to increase oxygen and monitor ammonia.
Your salinity is a bit low as you want 1.024 -1.025
How are you testing ammonia. . as with a HOB filter and 4 fish and zero reading sounds unusual.

 

[DocRose]

With HOB, you are providing mechanical filtration only and yes, you want to increase oxygen and monitor ammonia.
Your salinity is a bit low as you want 1.024 -1.025
How are you testing ammonia. . as with a HOB filter and 4 fish and zero reading sounds unusual.

Keep in mind there is live rock in the tank as well. That's the primary source of filtration, and why the ammonia stays at 0.

It's very common to keep salinity between 1.019-1.020 in a QT tank.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Keep in mind there is live rock in the tank as well. That's the primary source of filtration, and why the ammonia stays at 0.

1.019-1.020 is a largely common level of salinity for a QT tank.

Live rock is not a filter and does not remove ammonia but stabilizes system by providing surface area for nitrifying Bacteria to colonize and increase allowing natural bio sources to grow.
Ive been doing salt for near 39 years and 1.019 IS NOT an industry standard but rather 1.023-1.025

Look at every manufacturer of salt mixing instructions and you will see these very ranges below

 

[DocRose]

Live rock is not a filter and does not remove ammonia but stabilizes system by providing surface area for nitrifying Bacteria to colonize and increase allowing natural bio sources to grow.
Ive been doing salt for near 39 years and 1.019 IS NOT an industry standard but rather 1.023-1.025

Look at every manufacturer of salt mixing instructions and you will see these very ranges below

I'm not sure if we're having some sort of miscommunication here or what. "Live rock" is rock that has already been colonized by nitrifying bacteria... Nitrifying bacteria is what performs the nitrate cycle, which starts with breaking down ammonia. So yes, live rock (which has nitrifying bacteria on it), is the "filtration" I need in QT. Now...if you mean filtration in terms of what am I using to remove large particles of detritus from the water column, that would be the HOB with the standard media (bio-bag and sponge), and some filter floss.

I never said 1.019-1.020 is an "industry standard". I said it's very common to keep the salinity in a QUARANTINE tank between 1.019-1.020. There's all sorts of articles and reports you can look up to explain why this is true.

 

[MnFish1]

With HOB, you are providing mechanical filtration only and yes, you want to increase oxygen and monitor ammonia.
Your salinity is a bit low as you want 1.024 -1.025
How are you testing ammonia. . as with a HOB filter and 4 fish and zero reading sounds unusual.

Depending on the size of the HOB filter and the medium - it can provide mechanical and biological filtration. Many QT tanks ONLY have HOB filters - and no live Rock. Live rock contains tons of nitrifying bacteria (potentially) - BUT - I'm not sure I would use it in a QT tank - due to issues with medication adsorption.

 

[DocRose]

Depending on the size of the HOB filter and the medium - it can provide mechanical and biological filtration. Many QT tanks ONLY have HOB filters - and no live Rock. Live rock contains tons of nitrifying bacteria (potentially) - BUT - I'm not sure I would use it in a QT tank - due to issues with medication adsorption.

Yep. I've had a plan all along to deal with the whole "rock absorbing medications" issue. Since I adopted the "observe first and only treat if needed" approach...I plan to remove the rock if/when I start medicating/treating. At that point I'd rely on the HOB biological filtration; but be checking ammonia MUCH more often to make sure it's keeping up.

 

[MnFish1]

Yep. I've had a plan all along to deal with the whole "rock absorbing medications" issue. Since I adopted the "observe first and only treat if needed" approach...I plan to remove the rock if/when I start medicating/treating. At that point I'd rely on the HOB biological filtration; but be checking ammonia MUCH more often to make sure it's keeping up.

Others will disagree - I would get a Seachem Alert badge.

 

[DocRose]

Others will disagree - I would get a Seachem Alert badge.

I already have that in there too. I test every so often because (while it's rare) I've seen reviews about the badges not alerting properly to ammonia levels...and also giving false readings.

 

[MnFish1]

I already have that in there too. I test every so often because (while it's rare) I've seen reviews about the badges not alerting properly to ammonia levels...and also giving false readings.

The problem with the badge (to me) seems to be - that 1) if you add something that 'should' decrease free ammonia - the badge does not change. 2) The change between 0 ammonia and high ammonia takes minutes. The change between high ammonia and low ammonia can take longer (like hours

 

[DocRose]

4 in a 20 gallon. . . . what is your ammonai-nitrate-ph-salinity ?

Ammonia - 0
Salinity - 1.020
I'll test the pH and NO3 a little later today.

pH - 7.9
Nitrate - 20~

I added in an air stone, and I'm going to do a W/C...but I believe @Jay Hemdal is 100% correct about UNWD. Especially since I saw him swim around somewhat normally twice today, before going back belly up on the bottom. I'm torn between seeing if he can be the first ever to survive; or just euthanizing him and getting my guarantee from the seller on him. Tomorrow's the last day for me to submit the claim.

 

[MnFish1]

pH - 7.9
Nitrate - 20~

I added in an air stone, and I'm going to do a W/C...but I believe @Jay Hemdal is 100% correct about UNWD. Especially since I saw him swim around somewhat normally twice today, before going back belly up on the bottom. I'm torn between seeing if he can be the first ever to survive; or just euthanizing him and getting my guarantee from the seller on him. Tomorrow's the last day for me to submit the claim.

Me too.