Setting up AquaForest 3 part +1 +2 +3 with X1 dosing pumps

[Kayanarka]

Hi Folks. Today I learned I was dosing wrong, so I am re doing my dosing schedule. I have added this to my build thread, but I thought I would post it here also in case it helps anyone else. I will say that I am probably dosing way earlier in my tanks life then I need to, but I wanted to get a real early start to a stable tank.

I am re setting my dosing pumps using Aqua Forrest method of testing Alkalinity, Magnesium, and Calcium today, then again tomorrow exactly 24 hours from now. This will give me my total daily drop of each component. Then I can enter the component that drops the least into aquaforrests calculator located here:

Product calculate - Aquaforest​

aquaforest.eu

And this should tell me how much of that component to dose daily. Then I match all 3 of my dosing pumps to this daily dosing rate.

What I was doing wrong was having each dosing pump at different rates. Today I learned that when using Aqua Forrest +1 +2 +3 system, all 3 components should be dosed equally based on the rate of your tanks lowest component consumption.

So for example if my tank consumes a lot of Alkalinity and Calcium, but only a small amount of magnesium, then I would set up all my pumps at the rate it takes to replenish the magnesium each day. I would then need to use something else to make up for the remaining calcium and KH.

Today's Alkalinity was 9.0,
Magnesium 1350
Calcium 479

I will report back tomorrow's test results and what the calculator tells me to dose daily. In order to do this I had to turn my dosing pumps off for the day.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You will find that many folks have convinced themselves that they need to adjust these items individually, and frequently.

While there are correct reasons and situations where you will not dose equal volumes, folks should always start out with 1:1 dosing as the default for any two part system that is properly designed for 1:1 dosing (not all are and one that claims to be (Seachem) is not).

That said, my recommendation is to initially dose them equally to maintain alkalinity. Then slowly (over weeks, not days) adjust the calcium component up or down to get to your calcium target level). The part three varies by brank (if there even is one), buit in my DIY, I recommend dosing it to match the others, NOT based on magnesium determinations unless magneisum is much too high or low.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I will report back tomorrow's test results and what the calculator tells me to dose daily. In order to do this I had to turn my dosing pumps off for the day.

That is not really a good plan for calcium because it doesn't change enough in a day to get a good number. Based it off alkalinity, and only adjust the calcium part over a week or more of changes to average out the high noise in the calcium levels.

 

[Kayanarka]

That is not really a good plan for calcium because it doesn't change enough in a day to get a good number. Based it off alkalinity, and only adjust the calcium part over a week or more of changes to average out the high noise in the calcium levels.

The reason they say to dose AF +1 +2 +3 equally is because of the trace elements that are included in each of the components.

They recommend using a separate item to adjust for fluctuations of calcium, Magnesium, or Alkalinity.

The reason you want to dose for the item that changes the least is to avoid a number creep. If calcium is the item you need the least of, but you dose based on Alkalinity because you consume more of it, your calcium level is going to creep up higher and higher because your dosing too much.

From AF website:

Dosage: Needs to be adjusted according to the consumption of macro-nutrients, and based on critical water parameters like Calcium, Magnesium and KH. If one or two parameters are still not balanced- we recommend to continue with administering equal doses of each component, and take advantage of one of our additives (Calcium, Magnesium, KH Buffer) to restore desired level(s).

So in a new tank that is not consuming much calcium my dosing may be much less then the 25ml they recommend for the average tank, but if I dosed on a higher consumption component I would end up with calcium readings in the 500's or more.

And, if you look at all that is included with the calcium dose, you would not want to be consistently overdosing all of these trace elements.

Component 1+ contains: Ca, Sr, Ba, Co, Mn, Cu, Fe, Zn, Ni, Cr, Mo (25 ml dissolved in 100 l/27 US gal raises Ca by 4,5 ppm).

That being said I understand what your saying about setting a dose schedule based off a component that is hard to get accurate readings on. I may take your advice and set the initial dosing based off my alkalinity reading, and then pull the entire 3 stage dosing plan back if I find calcium creeping up in a week.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I understand what both you and they are saying. I've designed two part systems myself (including the one BRS uses).

But I do not agree with what you (they) are saying about how to best use a two part.

I think my recommendation is a better practice and it does not suffer any more in terms of trace element balancing than does their suggested plan.

 

[Kayanarka]

I understand what both you and they are saying. I've designed two part systems myself (including the one BRS uses).

But I do not agree with what you (they) are saying about how to best use a two part.

I think my recommendation is a better practice and it does not suffer any more in terms of trace element balancing than does their suggested plan.

You keep saying 2 part.. this is a 3 part. Are we talking about two different things?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You keep saying 2 part.. this is a 3 part. Are we talking about two different things?

No, two part is sort of a generic term for adding calcium and alk as independent but related additives, whether it is combined into two (like ESV-Bionic or Seachem Reef Fusion and many more) or three (like my DIY or the Aquaforest type or even Balling).

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Here's how these systems work:

The Many Methods for Supplementing Calcium and Alkalinity - REEFEDITION

There is no aspect of reef aquarium chemistry more important than calcium and alkalinity. Many of my previous articles have described various aspects of these systems in detail. In reading those articles, aquarists will note one pervasive theme: that maintaining appropriate levels of each are...

www.reefedition.com

Two-part Balanced Additive Systems

There are now a plethora of two-part balanced systems for supplementing calcium and alkalinity, as well as DIY recipes that I have published and for which suppliers sell quality DIY ingredients. These are always liquid additives that you add equally to tanks to supplement both calcium and alkalinity. In the DIY version, magnesium is added to the aquarium as a third solution, although it need not be added especially frequently. The rational for this type of product is that the bicarbonate and carbonate that one might like to dose to supplement alkalinity are not readily compatible with the calcium that is also needed. So one portion contains calcium and the other contains the alkalinity. When a DIY is used, the magnesium sulfate in it is not compatible with either part, so it needs its own solution.

In the simplest form, such a system would be provided by any calcium salt at one concentration in one bottle, and a carbonate alkalinity supplement in the other bottle. Within that constraint, manufacturers have a fair amount of room to play. Typically these additives claim go a step further. When the calcium and alkalinity are taken out of the picture, as they will be by calcification in the tank, then the ions that remain are often described as having the same ratios of ions as natural seawater. Assuming that this is true, then the “residue” is simply more salt for the aquarium. Over long periods of time the salinity will build up due to this process (an effect that is quantified below), but there will be no significant buildup of specific ions in the tank.

In order to accomplish this, manufacturers could use a variety of calcium salts in the calcium portion, for example. They could use calcium chloride, calcium sulfate, calcium bromide, and a variety of other similar salts. They could also put magnesium and strontium in this portion as they would not be compatible with the alkalinity component.

The alkalinity portion of these systems is more complicated. As has been shown in other parts of this article, alkalinity can be provided as bicarbonate, carbonate, or hydroxide. I don’t know of any commercial supplements that use hydroxide for a two part system, but the commercial ones do use bicarbonate, carbonate, and mixtures thereof. Consequently the pH varies substantially between brands, and the various brands of these products should not be thought of as identical for this reason, if no other. In order to attain the natural seawater residue, the alkalinity portion could contain sodium bicarbonate or carbonate, potassium bicarbonate or carbonate, lithium bicarbonate or carbonate, etc.

I’ve not seen any independent test of whether these actually produce a residue equivalent to natural seawater, but I’ve seen no particular reason to doubt it, at least for the major ions. When it comes to the trace elements that might concern some reef keepers, it seems unlikely that these products will be any less prone to having uncontrolled levels of trace compounds like copper than are commercial salt mixes, or any other supplement of calcium and alkalinity, but that remains to be determined (at least as far as I know).

One issue that has confused some reef keepers, however, is the presence of trace elements. Assuming that these products are actually formulated with every ion such that a true natural seawater residue remained (let’s call this the “ideal” product), then it will necessarily contain such ions as copper. Since copper is elevated in some reef tanks, and is toxic to many invertebrates, reef keepers have wrongly criticized this method as adding more copper. That’s actually not what would happen. Since these products leave a natural seawater residue, and since copper may be elevated in concentration in many reef tanks relative to seawater, then using these “ideal” products will actually LOWER copper levels because when the increase in salinity is corrected, the copper will drop.

For example:

You have copper in your aquarium at 4 ppb and salinity of S=35.

You add a two part additive that over the course of a month raises salinity to S=36, and raises copper to 4.02 ppb.

Then you correct the salinity back to S=35 by diluting everything in the tank with fresh water, and you get a final copper concentration of 3.9 ppb.

Does this happen in real products and not “ideal” products? I have no idea. But the statement by manufacturers that it contains all ions in natural ratios, including copper, should not be viewed as a concern that it is exacerbating a heavy metal problem.

The rise in salinity of these products over time can be very roughly calculated, though there are several reasons why this calculation is only an estimate. For every 1000 meq of alkalinity added in this fashion (and the matching amount of calcium) these products will deliver on the order of 60 grams of other ions to the tank. In a tank with a low calcification demand (defined later to be 18.3 thousand meq of alkalinity per year in a 100 gallon tank (0.4 dKH/day)) this effect will raise the salinity by 3 ppt per year (compared to a normal salinity of S ~35). In a high demand tank (defined later to be 219 thousand meq of alkalinity per year in a 100 gallon tank (4.4 dKH/day)), the salinity will rise by 35 ppt in a year, or approximately doubling the salinity. Consequently, the salinity should be monitored closely in using these types of additives, especially in a tank with high calcification rates.

Many people have begun to use dosing pumps to deliver these sorts of additives more uniformly across a day/night period with less work by the aquarist. Such pumps can be obtained starting under $100 for each part dosed this way. There is no need to dose the magnesium part this way, since very little is actually required and once a week is plenty often enough.

The costs of these systems vary a bit. The original B-ionic from ESV costs about $34 for 1 gallon of both parts (10,600 meq of alkalinity), or about $3.20 per thousand meq of alkalinity. It has a pH raising effect, similar to my DIY Recipe 1. The B-ionic Bicarbonate version is more expensive, and is necessarily more dilute than is the original because sodium bicarbonate is much less soluble than is sodium carbonate. If your tank pH gets too high using one of them (such as the original B-ionic), then it is reasonable to switch to one that has a smaller pH raising effect (like the bicarbonate B-ionic or my DIY Recipe 2 using baking soda).

The DIY recipes can be far less expensive, depending on what grade of ingredients you use. Buying ingredients from a place such as Bulk Reef Supply will cost roughly $10 per gallon (total cost of all parts, so 1 gallon calcium, 1 gallon alkalinity, and a few cups of magnesium additive), or about $1.40 per thousand meq of alkalinity.

 

[Kayanarka]

No, two part is sort of a generic term for adding calcium and alk as independent but related additives, whether it is combined into two (like ESV-Bionic or Seachem Reef Fusion and many more) or three (like my DIY or the Aquaforest type or even Balling).

Ok. I'll report on Alkalinity tonight and set dose based on that, give it a week and report back again with results on all 3 primary parameters.

Now while I am doing this, should I stop my water changes? I usually test at the end of the week right before a water change.

 

[Kayanarka]

Well.... my alkalinity test tonight, a little over 24 hours later, showed 9.1 I gained .1 Alkalinity by turning my dosing pumps off.... not sure were to go from here right now. I'm going to run the test again to see if I get a different result.

 

[Billys_reef]

I think a better and more simplified approach would be to dose all 3 equally. Test alk weekly instead of daily to avoid any testing errors. Maintain your alk at a range such as 8-9. If you increase alk dosing, then you should increase your ca and mag dosing as well. Once a month test for ca and mag just to be sure that they are within range. Ca and mag will not change much daily and you will not be able to see the difference. Testing monthly for ca and mag is more practical.

 

[Kayanarka]

I think a better and more simplified approach would be to dose all 3 equally. Test alk weekly instead of daily to avoid any testing errors. Maintain your alk at a range such as 8-9. If you increase alk dosing, then you should increase your ca and mag dosing as well. Once a month test for ca and mag just to be sure that they are within range. Ca and mag will not change much daily and you will not be able to see the difference. Testing monthly for ca and mag is more practical.

This sounds like a good plan of action. I am exhausted and was a bit frustrated. I did run the second test and got 8.9, so my Hanna checker has a variance of at least .2 I am now out of regent for the alk test also.

I set all the pumps to 5ml a day. I'll report back next week if I get regent in time.

 

[Billys_reef]

This sounds like a good plan of action. I am exhausted and was a bit frustrated. I did run the second test and got 8.9, so my Hanna checker has a variance of at least .2 I am now out of regent for the alk test also.

I set all the pumps to 5ml a day. I'll report back next week if I get regent in time.

Yup I was in the same boat as you also. Testing and adjusting my doser daily because my levels were different everyday. Turns out most testers have a +- % so it isn't 100% accurate all the time. Was getting so tired of it. Here is my current schedule and it has made testing a lot easier.

Weekly = alk and po4
Monthly = ca, mg, no3

If I notice my alk dropping each week, I bump my alk dosing a little and then test again next week.
If I notice my po4 raising to over 0.1ppm, I feed a little less and then test next week
For mg, if I notice it dropped down to 1290 after a month, I raise my mg to 1320 at one dose and then increase my daily mg dosing. Test again next month

 

[Kayanarka]

Yup I was in the same boat as you also. Testing and adjusting my doser daily because my levels were different everyday. Turns out most testers have a +- % so it isn't 100% accurate all the time. Was getting so tired of it. Here is my current schedule and it has made testing a lot easier.

Weekly = alk and po4
Monthly = ca, mg, no3

If I notice my alk dropping each week, I bump my alk dosing a little and then test again next week.
If I notice my po4 raising to over 0.1ppm, I feed a little less and then test next week
For mg, if I notice it dropped down to 1290 after a month, I raise my mg to 1320 at one dose and then increase my daily mg dosing. Test again next month

This is exactly what I was doing. But I was setting each pump at a different rate depending on my readings.

I watched a video from Aquaforest about setting up dose rates for +1 +2 +3 and the suggested the method of testing 24 hours apart and using the calculator on their site to set your dose rate.

This may work for some high consumption tanks, but my tank is clearly too new with not enough consumption to use this method.