SG Spiking again!

[jhadaway]

Part c, 8 level scoops per gallon. Brs soda ash, 2 containers per gallon on warm water. All with 0 tds rodi.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Part c, 8 level scoops per gallon. Brs soda ash, 2 containers per gallon on warm water. All with 0 tds rodi.

I’m not sure what those containers exactly correspond to, but that is probably correct.

 

[jhadaway]

Sorry, premeasured brs soda ash. Im dosing 104 ml of alk and 208 of part c at double strength. Im pulling out 3 gals of saltwater for fresh rodi everyday. But there’s nothing stopping it from happening again until i can figure out the issue.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Sorry, premeasured brs soda ash. Im dosing 104 ml of alk and 208 of part c at double strength. Im pulling out 3 gals of saltwater for fresh rodi everyday. But there’s nothing stopping it from happening again until i can figure out the issue.

I'd be especially wary of "fixing" something that may just be a test issue. If you are not adding salts in large amounts, the salinity is not rising. There are no unknown ways that can happen.

Either you are adding a lot more of the Part C than expected, or somehow otherwise adding a lot of salt.

If neither of those is true, test error is by far most likely.

 

[Justdrew]

I thought 8 scoops was double strength for part C and you dose 1:1 with your alkalinity dosage.

 

[ReneReef]

Also, if massively overdosing Part C, than wouldn’t you expect massive increases in Magnesium, Sulfate and Potassium?

Increasing salinity from 37 to 45 ppt by adding Part C wouldn’t that roughly triple Mg, Sulfate and Potassium?

So also I think that the salinity measurement being correct and Part C (mainly) causing the rise is totally UNrealistic.

To achieve an 8 ppt rise in salinity in an 100 gallon aquarium you would need to dose over 3 kilogram or roughly 500 level scoops of Part C.

 

[jhadaway]

I hear what everybody is saying and I don't disagree. But, something is causing this reading on both refractometers. So when I made beer, my hydrometer told me how much sugar was in the water. For reef keeping, it's salt in the water. So is there anything else that could be "In the water" causing a false reading? I'm only dosing, alk, cal, mag, part c. The alk and cal have trace elements mixed into the 1 gallon. It just can't be salt. Nothing is putting salt in that tank.

 

[jhadaway]

It took between 6-7 gallons of fresh water to get me down to 35-36 ppt. Tonight I'll start balancing the chemistry. I'm going to try and test the salinity every night. I'm also going back to regular strength dosing. Going to start eliminating variables.

 

[ReneReef]

It took between 6-7 gallons of fresh water to get me down to 35-36 ppt. Tonight I'll start balancing the chemistry. I'm going to try and test the salinity every night. I'm also going back to regular strength dosing. Going to start eliminating variables.

That also doesn’t seem to add up.

Assuming a net system volume of about 80 gallons. Exchanging 7 gallons would decrease salinity from 45 to about 41 ppt.

If those numbers are correct your net system volume would need to be about 35 gallons. Seems highly unlikely in a waterbox 100.3…

 

[Aquadude1]

Someone mentioned this and I may have missed your response, but I would triple check your ato. Not only that its working but also your top off water is good.

Edit: I see where you said you have an ato. Have you confirmed its working?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Also, if massively overdosing Part C, than wouldn’t you expect massive increases in Magnesium, Sulfate and Potassium?

Increasing salinity from 37 to 45 ppt by adding Part C wouldn’t that roughly triple Mg, Sulfate and Potassium?

So also I think that the salinity measurement being correct and Part C (mainly) causing the rise is totally UNrealistic.

To achieve an 8 ppt rise in salinity in an 100 gallon aquarium you would need to dose over 3 kilogram or roughly 500 level scoops of Part C.

same applies to most any way salinity rises. Those ions would not rise, but the only other way is truly massive overdose of alk and calcium, boosting sodium chloride, but there would be a lot of precipitate unless real demand is crazy high.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I hear what everybody is saying and I don't disagree. But, something is causing this reading on both refractometers. So when I made beer, my hydrometer told me how much sugar was in the water. For reef keeping, it's salt in the water. So is there anything else that could be "In the water" causing a false reading? I'm only dosing, alk, cal, mag, part c. The alk and cal have trace elements mixed into the 1 gallon. It just can't be salt. Nothing is putting salt in that tank.

There is nothing else that could be in the water at that level without wiping out the tank. lol

 

[jhadaway]

Again. Agreed. There’s a fly in the ointment. None of it makes any sense. I’m at least a month away from moving my lps to the new tank. We’ll see if the salinity risers tonight.

 

[ptrusk]

Hi Joe!

I know this is an old post. Was wondering if you found resolution. FWIW, I use BRS 3 part as well and my salinity jumps quite a but. Not as much as yours but i only does 132 ml/day on a 90gallon. Jumps from 1.025 to 1.028 in about a month. Keep alk at about 8. There is definitely something in the additives. Corals seem to love it. Growth has been explosive.

Congrats on the new tank! I have some frags for you when your ready.

Paul

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Hi Joe!

I know this is an old post. Was wondering if you found resolution. FWIW, I use BRS 3 part as well and my salinity jumps quite a but. Not as much as yours but i only does 132 ml/day on a 90gallon. Jumps from 1.025 to 1.028 in about a month. Keep alk at about 8. There is definitely something in the additives. Corals seem to love it. Growth has been explosive.

Congrats on the new tank! I have some frags for you when your ready.

Paul

That seems ballpark reasonable. Yes, they contain sodium and chloride

If you add 1.1 dKH per day, salinity will increase about 30% in a year.

 

[ptrusk]

That seems ballpark reasonable. Yes, they contain sodium and chloride

If you add 1.1 dKH per day, salinity will increase about 30% in a year.

Never had this issue with Bionic. Also never dosed the part 3. Do you know if ESV differs in sodium?

Not a big deal, I needed a less expensive method and it's dialed in now. Just curious.

 

[jhadaway]

I never did figure anything out. My job is literally troubleshooting and the most likely culprit is usually the problem.This all started when i began making double strength 2 part. Common sense tells me it was the thing i changed. All of my dosing cut in half and all was well for a few weeks then everything hit the toilet. There were several spikes. I did notice in needed to let the refractometer settle for a minute before i read it. Never noticed that before.
I had 2 dosing heads crack. One calcium and the other alk. Shortly after i had the dosing line split at the tube going into the bottle. 2 weeks later same thing so i changed out the lines. By then i lost some hammers, a huge monti and most of a milli colony. Basically any sps near the surface took a hit. Then came the phosphate spike from the coral deaths. Cyanno, dynos or both came next. I also believe the bio in the tank took a real hit. Its taken months to settle and im just starting to see the cyanno die back. Microbacter7 and mb clean every night for 2 weeks now. Chemiclean did nothing. The lesson is never try and keep an overgrown tank going while you build another tank room. I also have a nano at work. Way too much to handle. I wish i knew, trust me, but it was a spike no doubt.
I just saw all for reef is available in 5 gallon buckets. Cuts the price by 2/3 I'm guessing. Thats great stuff. Im rethinking the dosing for the new tank. Not knocking the brs 2 part but something wasn't right.
I just need it to last a few more months before i move the coral and the rest of the fish.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Never had this issue with Bionic. Also never dosed the part 3. Do you know if ESV differs in sodium?

Not a big deal, I needed a less expensive method and it's dialed in now. Just curious.

Well, it’s there. It’s an inherent issue with all two parts, and B-ionic is no exception. It comes mostly from adding alk as sodium bicarbonate/carbonate/hydroxide and calcium as calcium chloride.

I discuss in detail why this is necessary here:

https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/how-a...-calcium-system-works-and-why-it-matters.958/

This section:

Accumulating Sodium and Chloride

A very important consequence of using a two part is that sodium and chloride are added with every dose. Over time, this effect is quite significant. The actual salinity increase will vary based on exactly what other ingredients are incorporated into the two part, and in what form, but we can estimate the minimum effect one would see without water changes from just the alkalinity and calcium additions.

Assumption: add 1 dKH of alkalinity and the balanced amount of 7 ppm calcium each day. 1 dKH of alkalinity causes 0.36 meq/L of sodium to accumulate, or 8 mg/L sodium. The calcium chloride addition will add 12.4 ppm of chloride. Importantly, the Na to Cl ratio is exactly that found in NaCl, and we will come back to that later. We are thus adding 8 + 12.4 mg/l every day, or 632 mg/L in a month = 0.63 ppt each month =7.5 ppt in a year. Note that this is a minimum effect and does not count additions of other ions that may be present, such as sulfate.

This salinity rise means that aquarists may have to offset that rise by removing some salt water periodically and replacing it with fresh. It may happen partly by skimming, but will also likely require some intervention. Do not rely on the above number for intervention purposes because some two parts may contain much more material (e.g., sulfate, etc.). Make the changes as you would for any other factor impacting salinity: by testing and adjusting when needed).

Further, when one lowers the salinity to offset the rise from the accumulating sodium and chloride, one is necessarily depressing every other ion in the water. For example, if you dose at the 1 dKH per day rate, do no water changes, then after a year drop the salinity by 7.5 ppt, the concentration of every ion in the water will drop by a factor of (35-7.5 ppt)/(35 ppt) to 79% of its value on the first of the year. Potassium, for example, would drop from 400 ppm to 316 pm. Even worse, magnesium is not only depressed by this factor (1300 ppm to 1027 ppm) but was also getting consumed along the way.

Water changes will reduce these problems, but most two part systems try to deal with them directly in any of several ways that are discussed in the next section.

 

[jhadaway]

Thanks Randy.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

You’re welcome.

Happy Reefing