Should I switch to all blue?

[madlos123]

Heres a little update. Finished qting my corals and added them last month.
Added more blue green chromis and yellow belly wrasse
Yes i will have to move corals around once they get bigger lol :)

I need to do a build thread lol

 

[outhouse]

This topic is way more heated than it needs to be. Look up the common photopigments in corals we keep, note the wavelengths most heavily utilized, and then draw logical conclusions as to which colors are most productive. Also look up what different "white" light produce by reef lights is made of. This shouldn't be a controversial topic. Corals can use the white channel on our lights, but look at WHAT part of the white light I'd being most heavily utilized.


Just because a coral is exposed to it in the wild doesn't mean they use it or use it intensly.

Yep

Im at 8% blue which is a strong 8% and 1% white which gives my tank a 14K - 16K look and my growth was amazing.

I added to UV light bars and growth picked up a hair. But its not the spectrum as much as it is just added light.

I think you do need white, but not flooded with it. Best growth in 30 years was from 10k and 14k MH and atinic VHO supplementation

 

[madlos123]

Well i have a 90 gallon with 2 MH 250W 10,000k with 2 t5 48 inch true actinic :)
I have it on only for 2 hours a day for now for MH. Planning on moving it to 3 hours in the next month or so.

 

[outhouse]

, increasing PAR by increasing white intensity might not always be helpful.

Thats it in a nutshell. Par grows coral, and one can use different spectrum/colors to add to the total amount of par.

White alone cannot do it as well as a wide spectrum. And different levels of white are acceptable, provided the coral are getting enough of the non white spectrum.

 

[outhouse]

Well i have a 90 gallon with 2 MH 250W 10,000k with 2 t5 48 inch true actinic :)
I have it on only for 2 hours a day for now for MH. Planning on moving it to 3 hours in the next month or so.

eventually you will want 5 to 6 hours peak intensity, when I ran your set up I ran actinic one hour before and after.

 

[madlos123]

Thats the plan. Been increasing MH by 1 hour a month or so.

 

[biecacka]

I’ve posted this a few times, I think it is interesting and Sanjay has a decent tank and knows a little about light.:)


corey

 

[Roscovitch]

I’ve posted this a few times, I think it is interesting and Sanjay has a decent tank and knows a little about light.:)


corey

Very interesting. However the good doctor is an engineer and his experience with light comes from his experiences within the confines of the hobby: as extensive as that is. My experience as a lighting cameraman who has thousands of hours with the BBC underwater unit can tell you this much. Adjusting Kelvin (white balance) post production on rushes from anything shot underwater (so that it is viewable by the human eye) is quite drastic. The ability of white light to penetrate water is very very poor and so the fall off is so noticeable that by the time you’ve reached the depth of the average swimming pool it entirely non existent. With the exception of very shallow reefs where limited types of coral appear and proliferate, 99.9% of everything wild collected in this industry is collected where absolutely no white spectrum exists. I have in my time filmed collectors from Sri Lanka to the Caribbean since 1984. Red Sea have come to this same conclusion recently with the release of their ReefLed fixtures whereby they have identified that most hobbyists know so very little about the subject they have removed the ability to custom colour from their units. Giving the correct blend of spectrum within one channel and additionally adding one white channel used simply to satisfy the preference of the human eye for “full spectrum” light. This is sensible since the subject (threads like this one) are so loaded with personal options from people who’s expertise is that they have successfully grown corals and own a big tank. In a nut shell: this is my experience of 47 years of filming in the seas of the world. Corals need a lot less light than you think. If I had to put a number on it so that the hobbyist could quantify it I’d say from 50 to 300 PAR. Even the most demanding corals. In all my years I’ve never come across a single colony blasted by anything close to 500 PAR equivalents in anything but shallow reefs. I’ve worked with and filmed with many oceanic studies and I’ve seen the numbers. Reefs grow in a veritable heterotrophic soup impossible to recreate in a closed system. We rely on phototrophy and the Calvin cycle to keep corals in captivity. One of the reasons some reefers can grow corals without directly feeding them in fact. However: most corals collected for the hobby are collected from depths no white exists. As Red Sea have wisely (in my humble opinion) have discovered. ‘Here’s the correct spectrum: just add white until it pleases you’. The corals don’t care.

 

[biecacka]

i really like the here is the spectrum concept (sort of like Kessil). My first endeavor into led lights, I tinkered non stop and had zero luck and went back to halides. I now run Orpheks but on a preset program and don’t touch anything.
Also, I appreciate your input as that is not really something I know much about and you seem to be well versed. Your opinion is very helpful. I run my tank about 20k and much more blue than that, seems fake to me. The program I run is sort of like you mentioned, run the blues and use the white to please me.
I bet you you have some AMAZING photographs and videos. Most of us could only dream of a job like that! Haha

corey

 

[Zeal]

Very interesting. However the good doctor is an engineer and his experience with light comes from his experiences within the confines of the hobby: as extensive as that is. My experience as a lighting cameraman who has thousands of hours with the BBC underwater unit can tell you this much. Adjusting Kelvin (white balance) post production on rushes from anything shot underwater (so that it is viewable by the human eye) is quite drastic. The ability of white light to penetrate water is very very poor and so the fall off is so noticeable that by the time you’ve reached the depth of the average swimming pool it entirely non existent. With the exception of very shallow reefs where limited types of coral appear and proliferate, 99.9% of everything wild collected in this industry is collected where absolutely no white spectrum exists. I have in my time filmed collectors from Sri Lanka to the Caribbean since 1984. Red Sea have come to this same conclusion recently with the release of their ReefLed fixtures whereby they have identified that most hobbyists know so very little about the subject they have removed the ability to custom colour from their units. Giving the correct blend of spectrum within one channel and additionally adding one white channel used simply to satisfy the preference of the human eye for “full spectrum” light. This is sensible since the subject (threads like this one) are so loaded with personal options from people who’s expertise is that they have successfully grown corals and own a big tank. In a nut shell: this is my experience of 47 years of filming in the seas of the world. Corals need a lot less light than you think. If I had to put a number on it so that the hobbyist could quantify it I’d say from 50 to 300 PAR. Even the most demanding corals. In all my years I’ve never come across a single colony blasted by anything close to 500 PAR equivalents in anything but shallow reefs. I’ve worked with and filmed with many oceanic studies and I’ve seen the numbers. Reefs grow in a veritable heterotrophic soup impossible to recreate in a closed system. We rely on phototrophy and the Calvin cycle to keep corals in captivity. One of the reasons some reefers can grow corals without directly feeding them in fact. However: most corals collected for the hobby are collected from depths no white exists. As Red Sea have wisely (in my humble opinion) have discovered. ‘Here’s the correct spectrum: just add white until it pleases you’. The corals don’t care.

My issue with running Blues at 100% and whites at 24% is how white the tank looks to me. I am only running AB+ all day because of PAR. If I run all blues with my radions and let's say 10% white all day the par is extremely low. SO to get the par I need for my corals im forced to run all AB+

But then I run into the issue that my PAR is too high on the sandbed and I can visually see some of my corals not liking it.

Like my zoas...

So now what do I do? Do I turn 1 of the 3 radions down or turn them all down? But I still want to have acceptable par all over the tank.

 

[Roscovitch]

My issue with running Blues at 100% and whites at 24% is how white the tank looks to me. I am only running AB+ all day because of PAR. If I run all blues with my radions and let's say 10% white all day the par is extremely low. SO to get the par I need for my corals im forced to run all AB+

But then I run into the issue that my PAR is too high on the sandbed and I can visually see some of my corals not liking it.

Like my zoas...

So now what do I do? Do I turn 1 of the 3 radions down or turn them all down? But I still want to have acceptable par all over the tank.

Regardless of what people say or do in closed systems I’ve personally never witnessed recorded PAR or PUR levels in the ocean that would be used in this hobby. As I mentioned above: all data I have seen points to levels of PAR at or around the 50 to about 300. Included in that is that most corals do not receive the same amount of light through the day. In fact in some locations healthy reefs receive most of their most intense light for only three to five hours in any 24 hour period. Of course one of the reasons mixed reefs are a challenge is that most of what we call LPS corals do not inhabit regions of the reef battered by incoming tides but rather drop offs and deeper parts all the way to the sand beds. Places in short where some SPS are utterly absent. Not all but most.

 

[Roscovitch]

i really like the here is the spectrum concept (sort of like Kessil). My first endeavor into led lights, I tinkered non stop and had zero luck and went back to halides. I now run Orpheks but on a preset program and don’t touch anything.
Also, I appreciate your input as that is not really something I know much about and you seem to be well versed. Your opinion is very helpful. I run my tank about 20k and much more blue than that, seems fake to me. The program I run is sort of like you mentioned, run the blues and use the white to please me.
I bet you you have some AMAZING photographs and videos. Most of us could only dream of a job like that! Haha

corey

It’s not as glamorous as you’d maybe imagine. 99% of the time you’re on boats and planes ******* kit. Underwater housing units were the size of your average minibus. These days you could do most of what I did with a GoPro. When I started back in the 70s was very different from the way it is now. I’m long retired but wonderful memories I would change for the world and everything in it.

 

[Zeal]

Regardless of what people say or do in closed systems I’ve personally never witnessed recorded PAR or PUR levels in the ocean that would be used in this hobby. As I mentioned above: all data I have seen points to levels of PAR at or around the 50 to about 300. Included in that is that most corals do not receive the same amount of light through the day. In fact in some locations healthy reefs receive most of their most intense light for only three to five hours in any 24 hour period. Of course one of the reasons mixed reefs are a challenge is that most of what we call LPS corals do not inhabit regions of the reef battered by incoming tides but rather drop offs and deeper parts all the way to the sand beds. Places in short where some SPS are utterly absent. Not all but most.

Then I wonder if my gut feeling was right. 8 Hours of AB+ then straight blues for 4 hours to allow the corals to "breathe" if that makes any sense...

I've also thought of maybe adding a couple of random "clouds" throughout the day to allow the corals to "breathe" for a moment when they're being blasted with AB+

 

[Roscovitch]

Then I wonder if my gut feeling was right. 8 Hours of AB+ then straight blues for 4 hours to allow the corals to "breathe" if that makes any sense...

I've also thought of maybe adding a couple of random "clouds" throughout the day to allow the corals to "breathe" for a moment when they're being blasted with AB

Then I wonder if my gut feeling was right. 8 Hours of AB+ then straight blues for 4 hours to allow the corals to "breathe" if that makes any sense...

I've also thought of maybe adding a couple of random "clouds" throughout the day to allow the corals to "breathe" for a moment when they're being blasted with AB+

There are so many variables in a closed system all I can tell you is what I personally do. Firstly if you’re going to run a light spectrum for 12 hours so that you can view the tank and if your equipment allows for it: I’d run a heavy cloud program through that time. I also wouldn’t drastically change light intensity during that process. I’d ramp up for one hour and I’d ramp down for the same period. That’s it. If you had nothing but the most light demanding Acros in your tank and you blitz them with high PAR/PUR I would personally have a schedule lasting no more than nine hours with a peak intensity of about three hours, say from 13:00 to 16:00. I would also include cloud cover. Duration and intensity seem to be inexorably linked to the growth and health of corals. There was a time we couldn’t ramp up nor down or simulate cloud cover. There was also during that time no ability to skim protein or understanding of the benefits of carbon dosing. We have now.

 

[Zeal]

There are so many variables in a closed system all I can tell you is what I personally do. Firstly if you’re going to run a light spectrum for 12 hours so that you can view the tank and if your equipment allows for it: I’d run a heavy cloud program through that time. I also wouldn’t drastically change light intensity during that process. I’d ramp up for one hour and I’d ramp down for the same period. That’s it. If you had nothing but the most light demanding Acros in your tank and you blitz them with high PAR/PUR I would personally have a schedule lasting no more than nine hours with a peak intensity of about three hours, say from 13:00 to 16:00. I would also include cloud cover. Duration and intensity seem to be inexorably linked to the growth and health of corals. There was a time we couldn’t ramp up nor down or simulate cloud cover. There was also during that time no ability to skim protein or understanding of the benefits of carbon dosing. We have now.

Are you familiar with the AB+ schedule?

Also I fear using heavy could cover would just reduce par too much

My par at the highest point of my tank is 300 and on the sandbed, there are places where it's 200-250. I struggle to find a place in my tank that the PAR is under 150

 

[Roscovitch]

Are you familiar with the AB+ schedule?

Also I fear using heavy could cover would just reduce par too much

My par at the highest point of my tank is 300 and on the sandbed, there are places where it's 200-250. I struggle to find a place in my tank that the PAR is under 150

I used to have the Radions on a 300 Gallon now dismantled during a house move. Brilliant units and I do remember the presets. However because of what I’ve posted above I decided on my own schedule. As far as I can remember I used about 65 Blue 50 UV and I believe there was some called cool white or something similar which I set around 10 percent. The red and green I’m sure where the others and I had them off entirely. Like most tanks I have built I ran a nine hour schedule. If it’s SPS I have a three hour peak roughly 5% increase and heavy clouds. If it’s LPS something similar but maybe a tad less intensity and no peak period. Again though everything in a closed system is entirely relevant to the occupants and how the tank is maintained. Right now I’m running three RedSea ReefLed 50s over a 4ft tank with 65% Blues and 15% Whites. The tank is only 50 days in with The right hand side given over to Torch Corals and the Left to Acropora. Albeit still at the frag stage the Acros are all showing white tip growth with PAR around 150. High.
PAR around 70/100. Sand bed.
Parameters. NO3=0.2
No4=0.02
KH=8.4
Cal=450
PH=8.2
Temp=26c
Sal=35

 

[Roscovitch]

I used to have the Radions on a 300 Gallon now dismantled during a house move. Brilliant units and I do remember the presets. However because of what I’ve posted above I decided on my own schedule. As far as I can remember I used about 65 Blue 50 UV and I believe there was some called cool white or something similar which I set around 10 percent. The red and green I’m sure where the others and I had them off entirely. Like most tanks I have built I ran a nine hour schedule. If it’s SPS I have a three hour peak roughly 5% increase and heavy clouds. If it’s LPS something similar but maybe a tad less intensity and no peak period. Again though everything in a closed system is entirely relevant to the occupants and how the tank is maintained. Right now I’m running three RedSea ReefLed 50s over a 4ft tank with 65% Blues and 15% Whites. The tank is only 50 days in with The right hand side given over to Torch Corals and the Left to Acropora. Albeit still at the frag stage the Acros are all showing white tip growth with PAR around 150. High.
PAR around 70/100. Sand bed.
Parameters. NO3=0.2
No4=0.02
KH=8.4
Cal=450
PH=8.2
Temp=26c
Sal=35

Should be PO4.

 

[Zeal]

Should be PO4.

I get home can I can visually see my light being too brightfor some of my zoas

 

[1ocean]

My issue with running Blues at 100% and whites at 24% is how white the tank looks to me. I am only running AB+ all day because of PAR. If I run all blues with my radions and let's say 10% white all day the par is extremely low. SO to get the par I need for my corals im forced to run all AB+

But then I run into the issue that my PAR is too high on the sandbed and I can visually see some of my corals not liking it.

Like my zoas...

So now what do I do? Do I turn 1 of the 3 radions down or turn them all down? But I still want to have acceptable par all over the tank.

Read your issue, as it also ties into mine as I build this 300. while I was touring WWC in Florida we spoke about this issue also. I noticed they had there Radions on their tanks anywhere from 12" to several feet off the tanks top. We discussed the light options and concluded it is best to not mount the lights close to tank/water and then reduce the output but rather mount lights at a greater distance from tank/water and not reduce light output, or at least not have to reduce the light output as much to still achieve the results, color,par that trying to obtain.
So I am going to run my 4 Gen5 EX 30's at 16" from tank tops brace to Radions lens, which then makes me 18" from Radion light lens to top of water. My tank is 24" deep.
Also I feel having the lights further off the tank/water helps prevent heating the water and also possible damage to the light from evaporation water...
This is just my thoughts and what I learned at WWC, I am hoping it will work for me...
My goal here was to just provide some information to you, so you can develop your own ideas.
Have great day...
Sal

 

[WereAllNegan]

White light isn't necessary IMO, rather a tool that can be used to produce a specific result in certain coral.

FOR EXAMPLE: Zoas

Zoas can and will grow with out the use of white light, many hobbyists have been running all blue schedules for years now with great success.

BUT

By running white light along with your already blue spectrum for the first 4 hours of your photoperiod will create bigger Polyps. The theory is that Zoas utilize the white light for those first 4 hours and after they sense its "gone" they spread bigger in search of more of it.

No one really knows whats happening internally and have no scientific proof except observation. I've tested this with always the same result. Zoas under white light will get bigger. An awesome YouTuber by the name of EAT SLEEP REEF comments in one of his videos that any Zoa he puts in his tank grows bigger polyps than in any other tank.
I checked his light settings and guess what? He's running 4 hours of whites in the beginning of his photoperiod. Coincidence?