Sizing a UV for Reef Tank - Any truth in this ?

[brandon429]

I saw where you posted about it killing ones that do get through the uv, agreed. It’s the benthic ones that have been posted as the source of reinfection


What about the uv proof threads vs the research paper info above, try and locate just one. If unable to, change plans

And what about employing fallow ttm and quarantine from above, instead of uv, for crypto control. What you found above won’t work for crypto

Just trying to help, big tanks get one shot then a massive costly do over in five years

Another risk for large tanks, Dino invasions

Good thing uv works there...and has proof threads


Only trust what you can find in proof threads, tip of the day

as an adjunct for the university paper, try and link a uv crypto cure thread where we can check for patterns. We have such threads for fallow and for qt techniques so it’s a helpful gauge imo

 

[14 foot reef]

What a great interesting thread....... So my original reason for adding UV was to clarify water and combat Dynos, the idea to size for crypto was just a thought since I'm investing in a UV, I might as well buy one large enough to handle possible crypto too. Looks like this idea has no real proof that it would work anyway.
So lets change the subject to what wattage unit would you purchase. I run tandem Reeflo Suntail pumps at 4000 GPH per pump, which is 8000 total GPH which gives me my near the 10 times turn over rate Triton suggest. To be clear, we will only run 1 pump through the UV and that pump runs about 4000 GPH. So we will be turning over the system through the uv, almost 5 times an hour. What would the ideal μw/cm² target be to manage clarification in water and combat Dynos? Thanks again for this interesting thread.

 

[ca1ore]

Let's take it easy on the whole 'proof' thing. Much of what's discussed in sites like R2R is correlation rather than causation. For example, back in 2013 I saw ich spots on my hippo tang ..... added a large UV and the spots went away and did not return. There's your proof'...... or is it. Novice reefers tend to think of ich in a 'binary' sense - you either have it or you don't have it - but the reality is that there are different strains of ich with varying levels of potency. There are countless examples of reefers that practice ich management - OK, it means that a few fish are off the list, but most will live with it just fine - and others where the parasite decimated their fish population. It's not 'binary'. Assessing the presence/absence of ich based on observed symptoms is not reliable. In order to assess the effectiveness of UV, you'd have to be able to actually count the number of free swimming parasites both in treated and control tanks. None of us have the tools to be able to do that. I've never had dinos, so cannot comment one way or the other on the effectiveness of UV - only that dinos are observable, thus mostly 'there' or 'not there'. Also, ich eradication and ich control are NOT the same thing. I think even a modicum of common sense would lead one to the conclusion that UV does not fully eradicate ich; however, equally that it may reduce the parasite pressure and give your fish a better chance to fight off the parasite.

 

[hart24601]

Should you get far enough in your proposal it would be interesting to look at flow cytometry information for bacteria stained with SYBR green or similar for counts, but to do some next gen sequencing and RNAseq so you can see not only how the bacterial count change, but also how the overall bacterial community changes along with the primary gene expression and how that relates to before/after with a variety of tanks with different nutrient inputs and DOC levels.

 

[hart24601]

It is also worth consideration there are plenty of scientific papers about fish developing immunity to parasites (specifically ich) and even a vaccine that appeared to work. UV might help develop some of that immunity without allowing the parasite numbers to overwhelm the host. Potentially.

 

[Steve Fast]

Letting the system go fallow is like culling the herd for foot and mouth
QT is like isolating Eloba patients
UV is like spraying for mosquitoes for malaria
Parasite evolution is like antibiotic resistance
Host immunity is like developing immunity from having had chicken pox or a vaccine

All the methods work to one degree or another. How well they work depends on the situation and pathogen's biology and life cycle....

 

[Tjakes680]

The only uv i ever had work to control parisites was custom made for my store when i owned a LFS years ago it was 25 bulbs 6 ft long I honestly forget the wattage but it was in a 10inch diameter pvc pipe it was piped on the fish only side of the store and we still would on ocasions get a fish with ich but never any bad outbreaks and it never spread that being said the electric bill was huge and it really would not be something easily installed in a home but hey it can be done my point is to control parasites you need a huge UV strentgh contact time and flow rate all come in play

 

[Kmsutows]

Most UVs are not strong enough to kill ich and parasites, you will need a massive one and with a very long contact one to sterilise, but then it will nuke all of your bacteria as well...

"Most" is quite a generalization and quite inaccurate. Most WILL kill parasites when sized with the correct slow flow. I use a 57 watt on my 150 gal system and it works wonders. I've had ich outbreak kill most of my fish, I bought the UV and haven't had any trouble since and that includes adding an Achillies tang. That right there should be proof enough. Most beneficial bacterial is not free floating in the water column therefore there really isn't much harm a UV will do.

 

[14 foot reef]

"Most" is quite a generalization and quite inaccurate. Most WILL kill parasites when sized with the correct slow flow. I use a 57 watt on my 150 gal system and it works wonders. I've had ich outbreak kill most of my fish, I bought the UV and haven't had any trouble since and that includes adding an Achillies tang. That right there should be proof enough. Most beneficial bacterial is not free floating in the water column therefore there really isn't much harm a UV will do.

The chart is from AquaUltraviolet, that is the brand I'm going with, I'm now trying to decide between the -----
240 watt 6 Bulb Unit
http://www.aquaultraviolet.com/products/uvsterilizers/classic/240watt

or .........

The 200 Watt Single HO bulb unit
http://www.aquaultraviolet.com/products/uvsterilizers/sl/200watt

 

[Kmsutows]

It is also worth consideration there are plenty of scientific papers about fish developing immunity to parasites (specifically ich) and even a vaccine that appeared to work. UV might help develop some of that immunity without allowing the parasite numbers to overwhelm the host. Potentially.

This is exactly the case I'm arguing. In a confined space ich is able to overwhelm a fish. Running a properly sized UV (or ozone, or fine filter mesh) will reduce the parasite to manageable numbers. It works and my tank is 'proof'

 

[Steve Fast]

I went with Pentair. They give flow rates to 180,000 μw/cm². To double the power cut the flow in half. Also as they have only one bulb at higher powers, for the same output wattage, they can generate higher μw/cm². I got the flow switches too, so they auto shut off if the flow stops.

 

[Mortie31]

"Most" is quite a generalization and quite inaccurate. Most WILL kill parasites when sized with the correct slow flow. I use a 57 watt on my 150 gal system and it works wonders. I've had ich outbreak kill most of my fish, I bought the UV and haven't had any trouble since and that includes adding an Achillies tang. That right there should be proof enough. Most beneficial bacterial is not free floating in the water column therefore there really isn't much harm a UV will do.

Maybe a generalisation, but I’ve had tanks for 10 years, had ich a few times, about 4 years ago, lost one or 2 fish but the rest have survived and been ok ever since and I’ve never used a uv... that right there should be proof enough that they are unnecessary???

 

[hart24601]

Maybe a generalisation, but I’ve had tanks for 10 years, had ich a few times, about 4 years ago, lost one or 2 fish but the rest have survived and been ok ever since and I’ve never used a uv... that right there should be proof enough that they are unnecessary???

Proof is a tough thing especially when stating it's proof UV is unnecessary.

Is losing a one or two fish ok for everyone? If it was a gem tang? Would UV even have helped?

Really we can only at best say if someone bought the same livestock as you, from the same holding tanks, added the same time and had the same equipment they probably would have only lost a couple fish the past 10 years. But even then they might not have the same results because we can't judge the immune system or parasite load of fish even in the same holding tanks.

Or how about people running the UV to combat dinos?

There are tanks that never get dinos, however you can't say that is proof no tanks get dinos.

I personally feel that QT and treatment are the way to go for parasites, but UV seems to work well for some types of dinos.

Perhaps in the future we will see that using UV to keep the total microorganism population down will be the "key" to keeping livestock that is considered difficult currently. Who knows. Worth keeping an open mind.

 

[Kmsutows]

Is it to be assumed that the use of UV in fisheries and some fish stores use it "just in case"? Heck no. You've never heard of skin cancer? Sun burn? It's the same thing. The light radiation kills the parasite. Will it get all of them in the tank? Not likely. But that's not typically the goal. The goal with a UV is to reduce numbers enough so the fish can manage

 

[14 foot reef]

I have switched this threads direction to discuss water clarity, algae and Dyno control, the Idea of parasite control was an after thought, if I'm investing, why not go big and help with Parasites. Again, switching to Algae and dyno control along with water clarity as a priority.

 

[14 foot reef]

So the NEW QUESTION .......... Which unit of the 2 below ?


The chart is from AquaUltraviolet, that is the brand I'm going with, I'm now trying to decide between the -----
240 watt 6 Bulb Unit
http://www.aquaultraviolet.com/products/uvsterilizers/classic/240watt

or .........

The 200 Watt Single HO bulb unit
http://www.aquaultraviolet.com/products/uvsterilizers/sl/200watt

 

[Mortie31]

Proof is a tough thing especially when stating it's proof UV is unnecessary.

Is losing a one or two fish ok for everyone? If it was a gem tang? Would UV even have helped?

Really we can only at best say if someone bought the same livestock as you, from the same holding tanks, added the same time and had the same equipment they probably would have only lost a couple fish the past 10 years. But even then they might not have the same results because we can't judge the immune system or parasite load of fish even in the same holding tanks.

Or how about people running the UV to combat dinos?

There are tanks that never get dinos, however you can't say that is proof no tanks get dinos.

I personally feel that QT and treatment are the way to go for parasites, but UV seems to work well for some types of dinos.

Perhaps in the future we will see that using UV to keep the total microorganism population down will be the "key" to keeping livestock that is considered difficult currently. Who knows. Worth keeping an open mind.

I completely agree, no one really knows and keeping an open mind is important but we also know that “ old reefers tales” are believed....my response was a sarcastic one in response to Kmsutows answer suggesting his tank was proof that they worked..

 

[Steve Fast]

I have switched this threads direction to discuss water clarity, algae and Dyno control, the Idea of parasite control was an after thought, if I'm investing, why not go big and help with Parasites. Again, switching to Algae and dyno control along with water clarity as a priority.

OK I can try to answer your questions about efficacy. First a caution… this uses results from calculus. Turns out that the answer to your question is broadly applicable to not only dinos, ich, yet also any general component in your closed system you would like to eliminate. Examples are anything that can be said to be uniformly distributed throughout the volume such as nitrate, phosphate, parasites, pathogens, algae cells, etc. First let me define a few terms:

By flow rate, designated by F, I mean the flow rate through a device, eg. filter, UV, etc. that reduces the component in question to zero in the water coming out of it.

By V, I mean the total system volume in the same volume units as used in the flow rate.

By t, I meantime in the same time units as used for the flow rate.

The amount left after t time is

exp(-Ft/V). This function goes to zero and the flow rate determines how fast.

So for a bit more nomenclature. Let C(t) be the function that describes the amount of what you want to eliminate at time, t. So now we have to consider how fast any component one wants to eliminate is growing. For nitrate and phosphate is is largely linked to the food put in the system which is likely linear. For biological cell or parasite that divides into two, we need to again define C(t). Again t is time, now r is the rate of cell division. So C(t) is 2 raised to the rt or exp(rtln(2)) or exp(0.69rt).

So everything has to do with the relative size of these two compared to each other. So in terms of C(t), the equation is

C(t)exp(-Ft/V)

That is for anything that increases by division, the equation becomes

exp(0.69rt) exp(-Ft/V) or exp(0.69rt - Ft/V)

Certainly if the flow rate is high enough, it will be driven to zero.

Hope this helps...

 

[Steve Fast]

A couple of caveats on the above.... C(t) is not strictly correct for ich or other parasites as it does not include the details of their life cycles. It is actually a bit more complicated and if anyone is interested I can work thorough the equations and share later when I get home from work...

 

[Kmsutows]

So the NEW QUESTION .......... Which unit of the 2 below ?


The chart is from AquaUltraviolet, that is the brand I'm going with, I'm now trying to decide between the -----
240 watt 6 Bulb Unit
http://www.aquaultraviolet.com/products/uvsterilizers/classic/240watt

or .........

The 200 Watt Single HO bulb unit
http://www.aquaultraviolet.com/products/uvsterilizers/sl/200watt

How much space do you have available? That 200watt looks pretty darn cool if it's as small as it looks but I didnt see dimensions. It does say it's designed for high flow as well.