Skeptical On High Flow Sump...

[clamstamp]

Hey everyone,
lets take into consideration, that if the flow through the sump is slow enough to allow the skimmer to clean all the water that goes through the sump, then the water that is left in the display has more time to get filthy before it goes through the sump. If the flow is much faster than what the skimmer can filter...some water will be unskimmed but because the flow through the sump is faster, the particles that one wants to remove has a possibility to cycle through the sump again and get skimmed out. Thereby one situation cannot win over the other bacause the skimmer has a fixed potential. Now with flow through a refugium with macro algae it may be best to run a quicker flow through, for the simple fact that the more exposure of substances around the parts of the algae that absorb the molecules one wants to remove from the water, the faster the algae will grow. Algae grows thus increasing its potential to remove nutrients. Faster exposure, faster growth, faster absorbtion.

 

[BoneXriffic]

Lol this got serious eh? My return is even more than 10x over and has been for over a year... simmer pulls great and paramaters are stable... so we cant say it doesnt work. But if water flows through chaeto at 5x or 10x tank capacity, the difference in contact time with each bit of water seems minute

 

[abinder]

I think that more sump designs are going to be similar to the Eshopps refugium and advanced series, where the water flow is split up through different paths so you can have slower flow through a refugium but yet have faster flow through other sections of the sump.

In fact, I'm going to be having the Eshopps advance 200 series sump installed soon.

 

[dgrigor02]

Stictly my opion, I'm basing flow through sump strickly on maximizing algae production. I don't and will never by into the whole skimmer matching intake philosophy. It doesn't matter how expensive or good your skimmer is it will never remove 100% of organics from the input water in a single pass so there is organics going to pass right through and right by your skimmer regardless. A reasonable amount of flow through the sump as to keep the temp stable should be sufficient.

Now when it comes to algae this is different becuase we are talking about processing dissolved organics. Dissolved organics are always going to reach equilibrium with the water column and dillute. It too is impossible for a single pass regardless of slow or fast to be 100% processed by algae. So the fater the flow the more dissolved can pass through the algae you will keep more supply of water to be filtered.

But in the end we are probably splitting hairs either way. It's likely pretty negligable and not going to be a make or break to a successful system one way or the other.

 

[gpwdr]

Keep it simple and just follow the Triton Method.
It's a simple reef keeping method and I have great success with it as have many others.

 

[mcarroll]

dwell time........

Dwell time makes sense to think about in a system like an RODI filter or a real UV filter deployment where the filter gets exactly 1 pass to do it's thing or you get +1 in the fail column.

E.g. For RODI, if the water passes the carbon block too quick for all the chlorine to be removed, your membrane takes a hit. No second chances, +1 in the fail column.

E.g. For UV, if you have sensitive critters downstream that are supposed to be protected form parasites by UV, but you have the flow too high and the target parasites wash through the system without getting a lethal dose of UV, your sensitive critters get infected! No second chances, +1 in the fail column.

By contrast, your skimmer sits there running in the same system of water 24/7/365 and there's no such thing as a "fail" condition as long as your skimmer is working. Pretty much same for any filter or media in the same aquarium system.

The reason I suspect manufacturer's of (e.g.) carbon and GFO still issue dosage instructions that include flow rates is for specific purposes like RODI and UV where it's required. But in most cases dwell time in an aquarium is 100% all the time for everything because the entire system is a small, static volume of water.

All just my $0.02

 

[mcarroll]

my return is a 6250 gph on a 300 system.

I feel a desire to unpack this statement now.

Is "6250" a nice, round number because it's a nominal flow rating on a pump?

A Dolphin Ampmaster has such a nominal rating.
And a flow curve like this (exactly identical to this, in fact):
(from marinedepot)

At least in the context of my "too much" flow, we're talking about actual, measured flow.

At 6 feet of head the Ampmaster is down to 5500 GPH of actual flow.​

And for clarity, I also mean flow between a sump and a display only (which I think is the OP's case).
Of course additional tanks on the system will require and eat more flow. There's more plumbing and therefore more headloss by definition, plus what the tanks themselves need.

Add another 6 feet of plumbing/head loss to the Ampmaster for the second tank and you're down to 3200 GPH of actual flow.
300 gallons x5 = 1500 GPH
​

It's still around double the "recommended" x4 to x5...but really not too extreme.

Plus, I'm sure if pressed you have a reason for having higher flow. (Not that you need a reason. )



Now the Triton forum really doesn't seem like the right place for this.

Is the OP still here?

 

[Torqued]

I feel a desire to unpack this statement now.

Is "6250" a nice, round number because it's a nominal flow rating on a pump?

A Dolphin Ampmaster has such a nominal rating.
And a flow curve like this (exactly identical to this, in fact):
(from marinedepot)

At least in the context of my "too much" flow, we're talking about actual, measured flow.

At 6 feet of head the Ampmaster is down to 5500 GPH of actual flow.​

And for clarity, I also mean flow between a sump and a display only (which I think is the OP's case).
Of course additional tanks on the system will require and eat more flow. There's more plumbing and therefore more headloss by definition, plus what the tanks themselves need.

Add another 6 feet of plumbing/head loss to the Ampmaster for the second tank and you're down to 3200 GPH of actual flow.
300 gallons x5 = 1500 GPH
​

It's still around double the "recommended" x4 to x5...but really not too extreme.

Plus, I'm sure if pressed you have a reason for having higher flow. (Not that you need a reason. )



Now the Triton forum really doesn't seem like the right place for this.

Is the OP still here?

Uh huh

 

[Torqued]

I think my only point is that while I don't think it's detrimental to have flows higher than the skimmer can handle, I think adding additional flow simply adds little to no value....

There must be a point at which too low is bad...but there becomes a point of diminishing returns, and I find it hard to believe that you need anywhere near 10x before a significant differences in the water makeup between the tank and sump exist.

 

[Russ265]

I feel a desire to unpack this statement now.

Is "6250" a nice, round number because it's a nominal flow rating on a pump?

A Dolphin Ampmaster has such a nominal rating.
And a flow curve like this (exactly identical to this, in fact):
(from marinedepot)

At least in the context of my "too much" flow, we're talking about actual, measured flow.

At 6 feet of head the Ampmaster is down to 5500 GPH of actual flow.​

And for clarity, I also mean flow between a sump and a display only (which I think is the OP's case).
Of course additional tanks on the system will require and eat more flow. There's more plumbing and therefore more headloss by definition, plus what the tanks themselves need.

Add another 6 feet of plumbing/head loss to the Ampmaster for the second tank and you're down to 3200 GPH of actual flow.
300 gallons x5 = 1500 GPH
​

It's still around double the "recommended" x4 to x5...but really not too extreme.

Plus, I'm sure if pressed you have a reason for having higher flow. (Not that you need a reason. )



Now the Triton forum really doesn't seem like the right place for this.

Is the OP still here?

ahhhh mcarrol, i cant slip a fast one with you can i?

tbh... i cannot go 6000 gph anyway due to the fact 1.5 inch pvc supports a max of 2100 gph.

the dolphin amp master series can be dialed back with a ball valve (which i do), but it also supplies my manifold - which only has a chiller.

so in truth... no. not 20x turnover. however.... it's enough to shoot water out of my returns as hard as it can handle. (why i keep it dialed back).

so as excessive as it may come off, i am pushing water hard enough where i worry if the return jets may pop off without pvc glue.

is there a point to it?
well it went beyond some arbitrary 4x or 5x number.

pvc diameter. 2x 1.5" returns 4200 gph
6 ft head pressure
potential for manifold and many reactors like pellets, gfo, chiller, water my neighbor's lawn, etc.
can be dialed back and save electricity doing so

so.... that all being said. i put a bit more thought in to it than "i want a mag 7, 11, etc". plus dolphin pumps have a lifetime warranty.

as far as it being a waste is concerned. again.
if you are pushing that much water IN to the tank, that much water will overflow and be pulled OUT of the tank. If a tang so much as toots in my tank it is sucked out faster than a coral can get a whiff.

my old 220 was underpowered and did the 4x thing. id see algae and detritus and all sorts of stuff go back and forth in my tank until a rock caught it and it stayed there to decay. I applied my previous lessons.

now would the accumulation of pieces of algae and detritus make everyone less of a successful aquarist? probably not. will it crash your tank? not if you do water changes. But lets not state because im sucking stuff out of my tank with the equivalence of a 1930s kirby vacuum cleaner, that it is all for not.

can a little dust buster get the carpet clean? sure. but why would you want to?

also this thread may be more appropriate in another section.

 

[Paul B]

I too am in the camp that if 3X turnover or 10X turnover its pretty negligable difference in the overall nutrient levels of your water.

But for aggressively trying to grow algae thats where I do think it play a bigger role.

When Julian Sprung came to our club sometime around 2006 he mentioned something that did stick with me though, when you have algae in the tank where does it like to grow ? usually the rocks where the powerheads are blasting the most and right at the overflows. So while I don't think it matters much for the overall nutrient level in your tank ( the whole clean filtered vs. dirty debate ) but for most algaes they like lots of flow they have adapted to that that have a constant supply of dissolved nutrients when the levels are low.

IMO 87% of the people reading this will agree 42% of the time with 75% of the posts. That's only if it is a Tuesday in a leap year. I personally think that almost 100% of this is a non issue if we are talking about, Like was said removal of "Nasties". Turn over rate in a tank does nothing for removal of anything solid and would only be affected gasses. Algae grows much faster in fast moving water because of gas exchange, and algae doesn't care one way or another about anything else in water but gasses which is why it will grow much faster just at the surface of the tank, or on a dock, or on my boat. Of course it needs nutrients but algae can extract nutrients from slow or fast moving water. A skimmer also doesn't care how fast the water is moving because as was said, all the water is going to get in there anyway. If it is to fast, the skimmer will remove it later, but it will all get there. If the water goes slow, it will remove the "nasties" at a higher lever, but not as fast as fast moving water.
I agree with 82% of what I just wrote and I am sure 50% of people fell asleep by now and will sleep 20% longer than if they did not read this. They don't know that, because they are sleeping. My reverse UG filter (stop laughing now unless your reef is older) runs very slow because I don't want to push to much oxygen through it. It has nothing to do with particles except that I also don't want it to clog to soon as my yearly stirring of it is enough as I am old and don't want to do it any sooner.

 

[Russ265]

IMO 87% of the people reading this will agree 42% of the time with 75% of the posts. That's only if it is a Tuesday in a leap year. I personally think that almost 100% of this is a non issue if we are talking about, Like was said removal of "Nasties". Turn over rate in a tank does nothing for removal of anything solid and would only be affected gasses. Algae grows much faster in fast moving water because of gas exchange, and algae doesn't care one way or another about anything else in water but gasses which is why it will grow much faster just at the surface of the tank, or on a dock, or on my boat. Of course it needs nutrients but algae can extract nutrients from slow or fast moving water. A skimmer also doesn't care how fast the water is moving because as was said, all the water is going to get in there anyway. If it is to fast, the skimmer will remove it later, but it will all get there. If the water goes slow, it will remove the "nasties" at a higher lever, but not as fast as fast moving water.
I agree with 82% of what I just wrote and I am sure 50% of people fell asleep by now and will sleep 20% longer than if they did not read this. They don't know that, because they are sleeping. My reverse UG filter (stop laughing now unless your reef is older) runs very slow because I don't want to push to much oxygen through it. It has nothing to do with particles except that I also don't want it to clog to soon as my yearly stirring of it is enough as I am old and don't want to do it any sooner.

i agree with 87% of this....

except the solids part. dont think the 13% with filter socks or sponge filters imagined that trash caught in there before it decayed.

 

[Paul B]

18% of me will agree with that 47%.

 

[d2mini]

I'm 98.6% done with this thread.
The other 1.4% is what's left of the initial 35% entertainment value.

 

[TylerS]

I feel a desire to unpack this statement now.

Is "6250" a nice, round number because it's a nominal flow rating on a pump?

A Dolphin Ampmaster has such a nominal rating.
And a flow curve like this (exactly identical to this, in fact):
(from marinedepot)

At least in the context of my "too much" flow, we're talking about actual, measured flow.

At 6 feet of head the Ampmaster is down to 5500 GPH of actual flow.​

And for clarity, I also mean flow between a sump and a display only (which I think is the OP's case).
Of course additional tanks on the system will require and eat more flow. There's more plumbing and therefore more headloss by definition, plus what the tanks themselves need.

Add another 6 feet of plumbing/head loss to the Ampmaster for the second tank and you're down to 3200 GPH of actual flow.
300 gallons x5 = 1500 GPH
​

It's still around double the "recommended" x4 to x5...but really not too extreme.

Plus, I'm sure if pressed you have a reason for having higher flow. (Not that you need a reason. )



Now the Triton forum really doesn't seem like the right place for this.

Is the OP still here?

I think this post hits the nail on the head. The recommendations for flow rates are not consistent. Person A talks about 0 head flow rate from the pump they bought, person B talks about the flow rate accounting for head loss, plumbing etc.

I would suggest something like 4-5x flow rate with proper calculations and plumbing to make sure that's what you're actually getting. 10x if you have no idea what you're doing and are just picking the 0 head flow rate on the pump. I think to be safe this is why Triton just recommends 10x flow rate. To much flow won't hurt, but to little could cause problems.

I would bet when it's all said and done that most people are far less then they actually think. I bet most people who think they are at 4-5x flow are 2x or less, and someone who thinks they are at 20x flow are at 8x or so. Friction losses are extreme at high flow rates. Some time I'm going to do a detailed post on this, it seems highly needed.

 

[d2mini]

Yeah, i agree... it's always surprising to figure out your actual flow... usually ends up being lower than you thought it would be.
I was shooting for 10x actual, but after head/friction loss I doubt I'm getting near that.
I wish I knew what the exact number is. So hard to figure out without a flow meter.
Tried the bucket and math approach but with the display emptying directly into the fuge, that's near impossible.
What I do know is that I'm getting plenty of flow.
I have a Vectra L1 running at 76% power. There's a few 90's and a few 1" barb connections on the return line and 4' of head so quite a bit of restriction, but the water is almost shooting out of the teeth on the baffle that separates the fuge from the rest of the sump.
We created a ramp to help cut down on splashing noise.

 

[mcarroll]

Some time I'm going to do a detailed post on this, it seems highly needed.

That would be awesome!

Not nearly as elegant as a nice explanation that covers all the bases, but anyone can see what you're talking about just by playing with the head loss calculator from reef central.....or the other one.

but after head/friction loss I doubt I'm getting near that.

Tried the bucket and math approach but

Try again!

If you have complicated drain or delivery plumbing, it may be best to measure at the return for the tank in question. (Whatever plumbing "outlet(s)" is easiest to access.)

Measure each return independently if there is more than one.

You can use a gallon milk jug or a quart yogurt container...a juice container....anything that's convenient.

 

[d2mini]

Try again!

If you have complicated drain or delivery plumbing, it may be best to measure at the return for the tank in question. (Whatever plumbing "outlet(s)" is easiest to access.)

Measure each return independently if there is more than one.

You can use a gallon milk jug or a quart yogurt container...a juice container....anything that's convenient.

The problem is in the main display i have two return lines. One near the surface and one at the bottom of the tank.
In the sump, my drain line ends beneath the water line of the refugium.
So I don't see anyway to get an accurate measurement with the bucket method.

 

[mcarroll]

The problem is in the main display i have two return lines. One near the surface and one at the bottom of the tank.
In the sump, my drain line ends beneath the water line of the refugium.
So I don't see anyway to get an accurate measurement with the bucket method.

Xtra complicated! One of the calculators should still be able to give you a close idea then...

 

[d2mini]

Xtra complicated! One of the calculators should still be able to give you a close idea then...

I had looked at that one on RC awhile ago but of course my pump isn't included in the list and the pumps are just listed by name, not GPH.
No idea how i'd be able to work my Vectra L1 running at 76% into that.
If you have any ideas, let me know!