So disappointed-Dead flame angel

[cst0215]

I thought I did everything right. Set up a quarantine tank , monitored levels to the best of my ability. Flame angel went thru 5 weeks of copper treatment in quarantine.

Bought an acclimation box and segregated it for 2 1/2 days in the display tank. Woke up in the middle of the night and released it into the tank. It was doing great for about 3 days. Eating, swimming all around the tank. Checked on him throughout the day via my webcam and couldn’t see him. When I got home a few minutes ago I found him dead.

Not sure what happened. Any advice and words of encouragement are appreciated.

 

[DmitryB]

Sorry to hear this!

I think one thing people will want to know is water parameters. What are the other fish in the tank? Any injuries on the Angel?

 

[vetteguy53081]

I thought I did everything right. Set up a quarantine tank , monitored levels to the best of my ability. Flame angel went thru 5 weeks of copper treatment in quarantine.

Bought an acclimation box and segregated it for 2 1/2 days in the display tank. Woke up in the middle of the night and released it into the tank. It was doing great for about 3 days. Eating, swimming all around the tank. Checked on him throughout the day via my webcam and couldn’t see him. When I got home a few minutes ago I found him dead.

Not sure what happened. Any advice and words of encouragement are appreciated.

Recommended coppersafe is 30 period . What was copper level and how were you testing it?
How were you testing water parameters and what readings were you getting?
Was fish breathing normal or labored?
Please post pics of the quarantine tank using bright lighting, no blue lights

 

[cst0215]

I was checking copper with a Hanna tester. Checking salinity every 2-3 days. Had a seachem ammonia badge showing 0 ammonia. Also tested ammonia periodically with a Fritz test kit.

Fish was doing great in qt the whole time, Aldo did great wile segregated in display tank for 60 plus hours. Once released it was doing good and eating for approximately 48 hours. It was fine last night. Not sure about today because I leave for work while the tank is dark.

Only thing I can think is aggression, but I never saw anything.

 

[cst0215]

Forgot to add… all other fish in display are fine

 

[vetteguy53081]

I was checking copper with a Hanna tester. Checking salinity every 2-3 days. Had a seachem ammonia badge showing 0 ammonia. Also tested ammonia periodically with a Fritz test kit.

Fish was doing great in qt the whole time, Aldo did great wile segregated in display tank for 60 plus hours. Once released it was doing good and eating for approximately 48 hours. It was fine last night. Not sure about today because I leave for work while the tank is dark.

Only thing I can think is aggression, but I never saw anything.

Last device I would rely on is an ammonia badge especially when its in medication. I recommend a Salifert or Hanna brand test kit. What level copper where you maintaining and was it coppersafe or cupramine?

 

[Kooma]

Photos would help

 

[Kooma]

Last device I would rely on is an ammonia badge especially when it’s in medication. I recommend a Salifert or Hanna brand test kit. What level copper where you maintaining and was it coppersafe or cupramine?

I found salifert ammonia tests are off with copper safe giving false high readings. The sea hem ammonia badge is unaffected by copper power (chelated copper)

 

[Fish Fan]

Forgot to add… all other fish in display are fine

What other fish do you have? I was also thinking maybe aggression.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I found salifert ammonia tests are off with copper safe giving false high readings. The sea hem ammonia badge is unaffected by copper power (chelated copper)

Alert badge is like a test strip and has short life and also approved for freshwater use. Been using Hanna tests for years and they match my ICP tests. Badges have let many reefers down and I will not depend on a $10 device to sustain hundreds in fish

 

[Kooma]

Alert badge is like a test strip and has short life and also approved for freshwater use. Been using Hanna tests for years and they match my ICP tests. Badges have let many reefers down and I will not depend on a $10 device to sustain hundreds in fish

No, but I’d suggest one on each tank along with other testing methods. It’s worth noting that seachem ammonia alert badges are for saltwater use as well.

 

[cst0215]

I was testing copper with a Hanna tester. Just using the badge as a backup to hopefully let me know if ammonia was rising between tests using the Fritz (very similar to API) kit. I was also periodically dosing bacteria and using Seachem prime. Did a 20% change every 4 to 5 days.

The copper was chelated (copper safe) kept at 2.25 ppm.

Display has 2 clowns, pajama cardinal, diamond gobey, citron gobey/ flame blenny, engineer gobey, and a yell tail damsel. Only fish I see show aggression is the flame tail.

I also have several crabs and a coral banded shrimp. Did no see any marks on the fish, but the crabs had already been snacking before I got there.

I did have my AWC change approximately 4 gallons of water last night.

 

[drdwl]

I thought I did everything right. Set up a quarantine tank , monitored levels to the best of my ability. Flame angel went thru 5 weeks of copper treatment in quarantine.

Bought an acclimation box and segregated it for 2 1/2 days in the display tank. Woke up in the middle of the night and released it into the tank. It was doing great for about 3 days. Eating, swimming all around the tank. Checked on him throughout the day via my webcam and couldn’t see him. When I got home a few minutes ago I found him dead.

Not sure what happened. Any advice and words of encouragement are appreciated.

Copper is a known poison to the long term health of the fish. Treat only if have symptoms - 30 days of medication free isolation is the standard nowadays.

 

[drdwl]

I was testing copper with a Hanna tester. Just using the badge as a backup to hopefully let me know if ammonia was rising between tests using the Fritz (very similar to API) kit. I was also periodically dosing bacteria and using Seachem prime. Did a 20% change every 4 to 5 days.

The copper was chelated (copper safe) kept at 2.25 ppm.

Display has 2 clowns, pajama cardinal, diamond gobey, citron gobey/ flame blenny, engineer gobey, and a yell tail damsel. Only fish I see show aggression is the flame tail.

I also have several crabs and a coral banded shrimp. Did no see any marks on the fish, but the crabs had already been snacking before I got there.

I did have my AWC change approximately 4 gallons of water last night.

To help, we need measured results of all parameters and how many gallons is your display tank?

 

[fish_collector]

There’s no way to determine why your flame angel died. We can speculate about it but that’s all that will be is speculation. All you can do is write it off and try again.

It goes against accepted QT protocol, but I’ve kept fish in QT for 30 days with no meds. If they don’t come down with ich after 30 days in 10 gallons of water there probably isn’t any ich in the tank. Same goes for the other fish diseases we treat for. I do treat for flukes though, that’s an easy thing to do.

My 2 Pomacanthus angels went through 30 days with no meds except prazipro. They’re both in the display for months now and no issues.

 

[vetteguy53081]

No, but I’d suggest one on each tank along with other testing methods. It’s worth noting that seachem ammonia alert badges are for saltwater use as well.

You go ahead and use them. They are reference tools and not accurate ,but after 45 years of saltwater, Ive seen many fail and fail reefers with false readings

 

[cst0215]

I should have noted…the total qt time was about 5 weeks. But the angel did show a few spots of inch 1 week in, so that’s why I introduced copper for 30 days. After about 2-3 days in copper I never saw another spot.

I really believe it must have been aggression, or perhaps swinging parameters. I guess I will chalk it up to a learning experience as this was my first time going through the quarantine. Not sure I will do another flame angel though because I was really thinking this was going to be successful.

 

[fish_collector]

When you did a water change on the QT, did you treat the replacement water with copper BEFORE you added it back to the QT or did you add fresh salt water and then redose the copper? You can’t ever let the copper concentration fall below your target at any time, even for a few minutes. It is theorized that an ich free swimmer, the stage when they are infectious to the fish, may hatch and attach to the fish in the moments while the copper level is down, it’s hard to imagine such a thing but people much smarter than I have decided that is the protocol that must be followed. If you let the copper fall below therapeutic level you must start the clock over again.

And FWIW, a SeaChem ammonia badge is in no way a replacement for an appropriate ammonia test, that’s not what they’re for, they’re for a quick glance to make sure ammonia isn’t building up when an absolute value isn’t necessary. They have a 1 year service life if not allowed to dry out. They do work if they’re fresh. They react quickly to the presence of ammonia but take a while to return to normal color once ammonia is removed. Let’s not beat each other up for using an ammonia badge.

 

[cst0215]

Here are some photos of the qt tank. It’s 10 gallons with a powered sponge type filter ( Sicce shark pro nano I believe). Also has small in tank UV filter (right side of tank)

The water change I referred to was in the display tank after the flame angel had been in for 48 hours.

The copper in the qt tank was stable and was never below 2.25. It is a chelated copper safe type.

Every other fish in the display tank is fine… but I have been battling stability with working out the bugs on my ato/awc. And the tank has been a little warm. (Approx 80 degrees)

 

[fish_collector]

80f is fine, my tanks run warmer than that. And whatever salinity fluctuation you are getting from messing with an ATO probably isnt enough to cause any harm, unless it’s a huge change, but then you’d see changes with all of your fish.

Your QT looks good.