Solving ICK in QT

[Steven9194]

Trying to determine the best option from here. Have a sailfin and mag fox in a QT currently, where they have been the last two weeks. They have been eating well, but today I discovered some ick.

I’ve had a couple different recommendations on what to do and not sure which route people have had the best outcomes with.

1) leave the fish alone and just see if it goes away on its own.

2) hyposalinity and drop the level down to 1.09.

3) treat with copper safe and nitrofurizone for 15 days.

 

[Fish Fan]

Wow, sorry to hear about your fish. There's lot's of great reefers here, so someone will get you on the right track. One of R2R's experts on fish pathogens is @Jay Hemdal maybe he can stop by and offer some advice.

Best of luck to you and your fishes!

 

[Spare time]

Hyposalinity or Copper(power/safe) for 30 days at 81F. Otherwise you might as well have just left them in the display. Nitrofurizone does nothing for marine ich.

 

[Spare time]

Leaving the fish alone without treating all fish from the tank and leaving the display empty for a little over a month and a half is the only way to not make it a gambling scenario if the fish were not quarentined to begin with. Some people on this site enjoy gambling with the lives of animals and pride themselves on ignorance as to how disease and immune systems work. I am not a fan of that. Having worked at 2 LFS, I can tell you that disease is the top 3 reasons why a tank crashes, and likely the most common cause of death of fish outside of equipment failures once they reach they are done with being captured and transported.

 

[I never finish anythi]

Hmm I'd wait for a fishmedic to confirm that is definitely ich first .

 

[Fish Fan]

Leaving the fish alone without treating all fish from the tank and leaving the display empty for a little over a month and a half is the only way to not make it a gambling scenario if the fish were not quarentined to begin with. Some people on this site enjoy gambling with the lives of animals and pride themselves on ignorance as to how disease and immune systems work. I am not a fan of that. Having worked at an LFS, I can tell you that disease is the top 3 reasons why a tank crashes, and likely the most common cause of death of fish outside equipment failures

Some would suggested that the fallow (fishless) period would be closer to 76 days to be totally safe.

 

[Steven9194]

Hyposalinity or Copper(power/safe) for 30 days at 81F. Otherwise you might as well have just left them in the display. Nitrofurizone does nothing for marine ich.

They never made it into the display tank yet. They’ve been in QT since I got them two weeks ago.

 

[Steven9194]

Leaving the fish alone without treating all fish from the tank and leaving the display empty for a little over a month and a half is the only way to not make it a gambling scenario if the fish were not quarentined to begin with. Some people on this site enjoy gambling with the lives of animals and pride themselves on ignorance as to how disease and immune systems work. I am not a fan of that. Having worked at 2 LFS, I can tell you that disease is the top 3 reasons why a tank crashes, and likely the most common cause of death of fish outside of equipment failures once they reach they are done with being captured and transported.

They were never in the display tank. I’ve had them in QT since I got them.

 

[Steven9194]

Wow, sorry to hear about your fish. There's lot's of great reefers here, so someone will get you on the right track. One of R2R's experts on fish pathogens is @Jay Hemdal maybe he can stop by and offer some advice.

Best of luck to you and your fishes!

Thanks! Hopefully he can give me a better idea. I observed some, what I believed was heavy breathing, so I grabbed a video and a friend spotted some ick on the tang. I also treated them both for flukes, which they both had quite a bit… but I’m looking for the most ideal route to treat them for ick, as I’ve been given multiple different directions.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Trying to determine the best option from here. Have a sailfin and mag fox in a QT currently, where they have been the last two weeks. They have been eating well, but today I discovered some ick.

I’ve had a couple different recommendations on what to do and not sure which route people have had the best outcomes with.

1) leave the fish alone and just see if it goes away on its own.

2) hyposalinity and drop the level down to 1.09.

3) treat with copper safe and nitrofurizone for 15 days.

I can't confirm if those two spots are ich or not, it will take time to see if it develops in order to confirm that. If it is ich, at this stage of the infection, there will be no other symptoms. However, the tang is breathing too fast. That is either a water quality issue (is ammonia at zero?) or a gill disease. Given that the fish is still eating, the diagnosis would lean towards gill flukes. Amyloodinium/velvet also causes rapid breathing, but the fish soon stop eating.
If the fish just has gill flukes and a mild case of ich, 30 days of hyposalinity would resolve that. However, hypo doesn't work in velvet.

Observational quarantine, where you just hold the fish and don't treat for anything isn't a good idea. Uncontrolled diseases can get started, and then you are put on the defensive.

Our basic quarantine process is here:

Current Quarantine Protocol

2023 Quarantine Procedures Jay Hemdal David Scarborough Protozoans (Cryptocaryon/ich, Amyloodinium/velvet) and Metazoan trematodes/flukes are by far the most common parasites found on newly acquired fish. A carefully managed quarantine process can effectively eliminate these parasites before...

www.reef2reef.com

Jay

 

[Steven9194]

I can't confirm if those two spots are ich or not, it will take time to see if it develops in order to confirm that. If it is ich, at this stage of the infection, there will be no other symptoms. However, the tang is breathing too fast. That is either a water quality issue (is ammonia at zero?) or a gill disease. Given that the fish is still eating, the diagnosis would lean towards gill flukes. Amyloodinium/velvet also causes rapid breathing, but the fish soon stop eating.
If the fish just has gill flukes and a mild case of ich, 30 days of hyposalinity would resolve that. However, hypo doesn't work in velvet.

Observational quarantine, where you just hold the fish and don't treat for anything isn't a good idea. Uncontrolled diseases can get started, and then you are put on the defensive.

Our basic quarantine process is here:

Current Quarantine Protocol

2023 Quarantine Procedures Jay Hemdal David Scarborough Protozoans (Cryptocaryon/ich, Amyloodinium/velvet) and Metazoan trematodes/flukes are by far the most common parasites found on newly acquired fish. A carefully managed quarantine process can effectively eliminate these parasites before...

www.reef2reef.com

Jay

There are a few other spots that u didn’t show. The ones in the picture were just the clearest. I did notice that breathing and did a fresh water dip, which revealed a ton of flukes. I have an instant ammonia badge, which hasn’t read anything other then 0. However u do 25% water changes every 3 days. I will reduce the salinity and see how things develop.

I was also told the fish also has HLLE. Any recommendations on treatment for that?

 

[Steven9194]

I can't confirm if those two spots are ich or not, it will take time to see if it develops in order to confirm that. If it is ich, at this stage of the infection, there will be no other symptoms. However, the tang is breathing too fast. That is either a water quality issue (is ammonia at zero?) or a gill disease. Given that the fish is still eating, the diagnosis would lean towards gill flukes. Amyloodinium/velvet also causes rapid breathing, but the fish soon stop eating.
If the fish just has gill flukes and a mild case of ich, 30 days of hyposalinity would resolve that. However, hypo doesn't work in velvet.

Observational quarantine, where you just hold the fish and don't treat for anything isn't a good idea. Uncontrolled diseases can get started, and then you are put on the defensive.

Our basic quarantine process is here:

Current Quarantine Protocol

2023 Quarantine Procedures Jay Hemdal David Scarborough Protozoans (Cryptocaryon/ich, Amyloodinium/velvet) and Metazoan trematodes/flukes are by far the most common parasites found on newly acquired fish. A carefully managed quarantine process can effectively eliminate these parasites before...

www.reef2reef.com

Jay

 

[Jay Hemdal]

There are a few other spots that u didn’t show. The ones in the picture were just the clearest. I did notice that breathing and did a fresh water dip, which revealed a ton of flukes. I have an instant ammonia badge, which hasn’t read anything other then 0. However u do 25% water changes every 3 days. I will reduce the salinity and see how things develop.

I was also told the fish also has HLLE. Any recommendations on treatment for that?

What did the flukes look like? Neobenedenia is the only fluke that is easily seen in dips, and it doesn't typically cause rapid breathing (until the fish is near death). If you saw big flukes that look like fish scales, that's Neobenedenia, but this tang could also have gill flukes that are causing the rapid breathing.

I see some minor HLLE, just don't use carbon on the tank, it may go away once you get the disease issues under control.

If you go with hyposalinity, here is my post about that:

Hyposalinity

Hyposalinity Jay Hemdal 2021 This term refers to a long-term bath treatment for marine fishes in which the salt content of the water is lowered and held below the point that certain parasites can survive. The salt level reached, and the time of the treatment are the two variables...

www.reef2reef.com

Jay

 

[threebuoys]

Some would suggested that the fallow (fishless) period would be closer to 76 days to be totally safe.

If you haven't, you might want to read this article:

45 Day Fallow periods

I've been doing some research into the "76 day fallow period". I never heard of that prior to coming to Reef2Reef this past summer. I had always used 32 days as the maximum time for a tomont to remain viable under tropical conditions, and then I would round up to 45 days to help ensure that...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Steven9194]

What did the flukes look like? Neobenedenia is the only fluke that is easily seen in dips, and it doesn't typically cause rapid breathing (until the fish is near death). If you saw big flukes that look like fish scales, that's Neobenedenia, but this tang could also have gill flukes that are causing the rapid breathing.

I see some minor HLLE, just don't use carbon on the tank, it may go away once you get the disease issues under control.

If you go with hyposalinity, here is my post about that:

Hyposalinity

Hyposalinity Jay Hemdal 2021 This term refers to a long-term bath treatment for marine fishes in which the salt content of the water is lowered and held below the point that certain parasites can survive. The salt level reached, and the time of the treatment are the two variables...

www.reef2reef.com

Jay

Yes they were large and looked like scales.

 

[Spare time]

Some would suggested that the fallow (fishless) period would be closer to 76 days to be totally safe.

Yeah I recommend 45 at 81f or longer if you can't raise the temp

 

[Fish Fan]

If you haven't, you might want to read this article:

45 Day Fallow periods

I've been doing some research into the "76 day fallow period". I never heard of that prior to coming to Reef2Reef this past summer. I had always used 32 days as the maximum time for a tomont to remain viable under tropical conditions, and then I would round up to 45 days to help ensure that...

www.reef2reef.com

Thank you for your reply, I will absolutely check out that post as I'm definitely still learning. I didn't mean to come off sounding like you absolutely have to go 76 days, I know a lot of people recommend shorter, I just thought for myself I'd go the extra time, I don't mind waiting a little longer. Thanks again for your reply and for the link!

 

[Fish Fan]

Yeah I recommend 45 at 81f or longer if you can't raise the temp

Thank you for your help. Again, I didn't mean to sound like you absolutely have to wait 76 days, I just know it's a number that's floating around, and in my case fits into my plan. But good to know that my livestock will be parasite free after only 45 days.

 

[Fish Fan]

Thank you for your reply, I will absolutely check out that post as I'm definitely still learning. I didn't mean to come off sounding like you absolutely have to go 76 days, I know a lot of people recommend shorter, I just thought for myself I'd go the extra time, I don't mind waiting a little longer. Thanks again for your reply and for the link!

I read the post you linked, and at the end Jay mentions:

Addendum: I need to clarify, 45 days is the minimum value, for people who have some compelling reason to move the fish out sooner. Also, fallow periods fail for a number of reasons, not just the length of time the DT was let to go fallow; cross contamination and incomplete treatment of the affected fish are the two common issues.

Jay

So clearly 76 days isn't mandatory, as I had known, but longer than 45 days certainly can't hurt. I am nothing but patient at this point in my life, and I'm really enjoying my QT process, so I'm considering that 45 days as a minimum. Thanks again for letting me know about this post!

 

[Spare time]

Thank you for your help. Again, I didn't mean to sound like you absolutely have to wait 76 days, I just know it's a number that's floating around, and in my case fits into my plan. But good to know that my livestock will be parasite free after only 45 days.

45 days is sort of a recommended minimum on this website but longer is safer