OP
OP
Wow... you got it going with the temp in the 60s? That's exactly what I needed to hear. I was worried that 60s would never work. Thanks @swiss1939!!!
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Wow... you got it going with the temp in the 60s? That's exactly what I needed to hear. I was worried that 60s would never work. Thanks @swiss1939!!!
NS Mike D
In the arena.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/sour-dough-bread-thread.375761/
I started my starter in 2018. In fact, I made another loaf last night. While I do scale my ingredients and get my water up tp 80°-90° when I am ready to mix, I don't sweat tap water, sourness etc.
IMO, sourdough is like sour beer, let it reflect the local conditions.
I'll post my most recent variation of the recipe.
I started my starter in 2018. In fact, I made another loaf last night. While I do scale my ingredients and get my water up tp 80°-90° when I am ready to mix, I don't sweat tap water, sourness etc.
IMO, sourdough is like sour beer, let it reflect the local conditions.
I'll post my most recent variation of the recipe.
swiss1939
Well-Known Member
Yes if your tap water is not hindering it then no harm. Mine was killing the bac so switching to filtered water solved the problem very quickly.
Probably less important after months, but the first week or two it's too new so that tap water was causing problems
OP
OP
so i guess where i live is really rotten. :)
Amazing that your starter is from 2018.
NS Mike D
In the arena.
The Starter. - start with any recipe to create a mother, This is what I have been using to maintain. I don't weigh it anymore as the tbls method works.
2 tbls mother
4 tbls King Arthur Bread
1 Tbls King Arthur Whole Whear
4 tbls Water
My current sourdough recipe
Starter
25 grams mother
25 grams KA Bread
25 grams KA whole wheat
50 grams water
Dough
425 grams KA Bread
75 grams KA whole wheat
360 grams water (80°-90° depending on room temp)
10 grams salt
make the starter 12 hours ahead of when you are ready to make the dough. If not sure, drop a drop of starter in glass of water, it should float.
1. Scale out ingredients
2. Add starter and warm water to mixing bowl, wait a few minute add the flour and salt and mix to form a wet but firm dough.
3. Fold the dough until it is a tight ball and not wet and sticky. While many will do this on a floured surface, I do this in the stainless steel bowl with a silicone scraper, Like folding a meringue, I slide the scraper down the sides and under the dough and fold the bottom up turning the bowl. Cover with a towel or silicone lid.
4 Rise for 5 hours - fold every 20 minute for the first two hours and them leave be for the next three. Check by dropping a drop in water, if it doesn't float. let the rise continue for another 30 minutes.
5. Pre Shape on a floured surface. Grab and pull the top and fold to the middle, bottom to middle, left to middle and right to middle. If too relaxed, repeat.
6. Cover with towel and rest 30 minutes
7 Shape. Flip and then repeat the folds once (4 turns) then flip seam side down and shape into a boule by pushing the dough against the counter with your hands/scraper and rotating. Dough should remain tight. A loose wet dough will stick to the dutch oven.
8. Proof 2 hours , place in a proofing basket seam side up
9 Pre-heat - 30 minutes before baking preheat the over to 475° with empty dutch oven inside
10 Bake; remove the dutch oven from oven, flip dough seam side down, make a big X with a razor blade, lame or very sharp knife on top. Cover and bake 25 minutes. Remove lid (should be risen and pale). Bake another 15 - 20 minutes. Golden brown and the crust should make a deep thump when tapped. I prefer to bake it a bit longer where the crust edges are a deep brown.
11. Remove and rest on a cooling rack for 20 minutes.
2 tbls mother
4 tbls King Arthur Bread
1 Tbls King Arthur Whole Whear
4 tbls Water
My current sourdough recipe
Starter
25 grams mother
25 grams KA Bread
25 grams KA whole wheat
50 grams water
Dough
425 grams KA Bread
75 grams KA whole wheat
360 grams water (80°-90° depending on room temp)
10 grams salt
make the starter 12 hours ahead of when you are ready to make the dough. If not sure, drop a drop of starter in glass of water, it should float.
1. Scale out ingredients
2. Add starter and warm water to mixing bowl, wait a few minute add the flour and salt and mix to form a wet but firm dough.
3. Fold the dough until it is a tight ball and not wet and sticky. While many will do this on a floured surface, I do this in the stainless steel bowl with a silicone scraper, Like folding a meringue, I slide the scraper down the sides and under the dough and fold the bottom up turning the bowl. Cover with a towel or silicone lid.
4 Rise for 5 hours - fold every 20 minute for the first two hours and them leave be for the next three. Check by dropping a drop in water, if it doesn't float. let the rise continue for another 30 minutes.
5. Pre Shape on a floured surface. Grab and pull the top and fold to the middle, bottom to middle, left to middle and right to middle. If too relaxed, repeat.
6. Cover with towel and rest 30 minutes
7 Shape. Flip and then repeat the folds once (4 turns) then flip seam side down and shape into a boule by pushing the dough against the counter with your hands/scraper and rotating. Dough should remain tight. A loose wet dough will stick to the dutch oven.
8. Proof 2 hours , place in a proofing basket seam side up
9 Pre-heat - 30 minutes before baking preheat the over to 475° with empty dutch oven inside
10 Bake; remove the dutch oven from oven, flip dough seam side down, make a big X with a razor blade, lame or very sharp knife on top. Cover and bake 25 minutes. Remove lid (should be risen and pale). Bake another 15 - 20 minutes. Golden brown and the crust should make a deep thump when tapped. I prefer to bake it a bit longer where the crust edges are a deep brown.
11. Remove and rest on a cooling rack for 20 minutes.
NS Mike D
In the arena.
cooler the temperature the more lacto type bacteria will form and in increase the sourness. It will take much longer so counter top is just much easier. I have put my dough in the fridge overnight before bring back to room temperature and then let the rise continue. It did have a profound sourness but it was more dense and lacked the spring I like. The recipe I posted seems to be a good balance between flavor, texture, ease and consistency.
I started by using the America Test Kitchen method but I found that it wold be inconsistent. This method I posted has two check points, the starter and the rise to reduce the chances of a dense loaf.
NS Mike D
In the arena.
I found that the 50/50 methods produced a thin starter and lacked flavor. I cut the water back and found it developed better.
I should mention the air in my house sits at ~72. Definitely not the 60 degrees. I've never found the need to put it in a warming oven unless I'm working on a rise, but I tend to like a bit more tang so the cooler temps certainly help that.
NS Mike D
In the arena.
I love it in the 60's Yeast might take longer in cool temps, but it produced better flavors and forms more gluten/structure
NS Mike D
In the arena.
agree, I do sacrifice the tang in my sourdough for consistency and predictability of the rise. Since yeast work best between 75° & 78° I start with room temperature flour and then have a chart that based on the room temp, you vary the water temp that will start the dough at that range.
the fridge is my friend. I store it in there up to a week (and confess, sometimes more). I'll take it out and let it warm up then re-feed it for one or two days before putting it back. Occasionally instead of throwing out the unused portion, I'll split the starter in two and feed both.
I am not sure what I am doing right but I suppose me and spoiling food is a good combination as I brew my own beer and make my own yogurt. A lot of yeast in my world.
OP
OP
This is all really good info and I'm drinking water out of a firehose right now... this is exactly what I'm looking for.
I'm on day 3 of my third attempt. Hopefully this one works... if not, good to know there is help available here in R2R. Thanks everyone and keep the good info coming along with the great pics.
I'm on day 3 of my third attempt. Hopefully this one works... if not, good to know there is help available here in R2R. Thanks everyone and keep the good info coming along with the great pics.
Rick.45cal
2500 Club Member
This is ”Mad King Breadward the First”... he’s an upscaled Quarantiny starter.
I’ve taken care of several sourdough starters in professional bakeries (some 25+ years old) but never started my own, he’s the first I’ve started from scratch. I started it after finding @Wordloaf on Instagram, who started the Quarantiny starter movement since yeast is scarce these days, he’s worth looking up. He’s a chef and a writer for Cooks Illustrated (If my memory serves). I’ve learned a few things in the process and used a trick that I learned from a Chef at New England Culinary Institute 20+ years ago that helped me kick start him into existence.
Like others have said room temperature is enough, too warm and you are actually helping bacteria to grow. My house is 70F and Breadward lives on the counter (for now). He will eventually be moved to the fridge where he will live and require less work.
The trick I learned to ”jump start” the starter many years ago is that you can add a crushed grape skin to the starter and the natural yeast present on the skin will get you going. I didn’t have any grapes at the time of starting Breadward so I used a single raisin, figuring that the yeast would have survived the drying process, and lo and behold it worked like magic.
So in this experiment I’ve also learned you really want the dough you refresh the starter with between the consistency of wet bread dough and muffin batter. If it is too wet it won’t hold it’s structure and you won’t be able to tell when it’s doubled and it’s ok to refresh the starter again.
Another thing to consider is how much of the previous starter you add to the mixture to refresh the starter with. More is not always better, by adding more of the original starter you are actually increasing the byproducts that slow the growth of the culture and also introducing more of the bacteria that may be competing with the yeast if it’s struggling.
It’s going to stink at some point, you just need to keep refreshing the starter, It’s going to go from that nice yeasty smell, to althletes’ foot, stinky locker room funk smell, as long as you aren’t keeping it in too warm of a location 80+F then it will disappear and become it’s own smell. You have to remember there’s an evolution of different yeasts occuring in the starter and as their population densities change you’ll get different smells, some of which may not be pleasant, but it will get less funky as time goes on and develop it’s own character. The longer the starter survives the more unique and mature it becomes, it will take on it’s own identity (hence why we name them). (The older it gets the better it will be)
Always save your discard from the previous feeding incase your‘s crashes, you can use it to start over. Keep it in the fridge.
After your starter becomes active and mature enough you can save all the discard and use it to make things like Flap Jacks, Waffles, Crumpets, and English muffins.
Here are some discard Crumpets, they turned out pretty good!
Hopefully some of this will help you on your way!
I’ve taken care of several sourdough starters in professional bakeries (some 25+ years old) but never started my own, he’s the first I’ve started from scratch. I started it after finding @Wordloaf on Instagram, who started the Quarantiny starter movement since yeast is scarce these days, he’s worth looking up. He’s a chef and a writer for Cooks Illustrated (If my memory serves). I’ve learned a few things in the process and used a trick that I learned from a Chef at New England Culinary Institute 20+ years ago that helped me kick start him into existence.
Like others have said room temperature is enough, too warm and you are actually helping bacteria to grow. My house is 70F and Breadward lives on the counter (for now). He will eventually be moved to the fridge where he will live and require less work.
The trick I learned to ”jump start” the starter many years ago is that you can add a crushed grape skin to the starter and the natural yeast present on the skin will get you going. I didn’t have any grapes at the time of starting Breadward so I used a single raisin, figuring that the yeast would have survived the drying process, and lo and behold it worked like magic.
So in this experiment I’ve also learned you really want the dough you refresh the starter with between the consistency of wet bread dough and muffin batter. If it is too wet it won’t hold it’s structure and you won’t be able to tell when it’s doubled and it’s ok to refresh the starter again.
Another thing to consider is how much of the previous starter you add to the mixture to refresh the starter with. More is not always better, by adding more of the original starter you are actually increasing the byproducts that slow the growth of the culture and also introducing more of the bacteria that may be competing with the yeast if it’s struggling.
It’s going to stink at some point, you just need to keep refreshing the starter, It’s going to go from that nice yeasty smell, to althletes’ foot, stinky locker room funk smell, as long as you aren’t keeping it in too warm of a location 80+F then it will disappear and become it’s own smell. You have to remember there’s an evolution of different yeasts occuring in the starter and as their population densities change you’ll get different smells, some of which may not be pleasant, but it will get less funky as time goes on and develop it’s own character. The longer the starter survives the more unique and mature it becomes, it will take on it’s own identity (hence why we name them). (The older it gets the better it will be)
Always save your discard from the previous feeding incase your‘s crashes, you can use it to start over. Keep it in the fridge.
After your starter becomes active and mature enough you can save all the discard and use it to make things like Flap Jacks, Waffles, Crumpets, and English muffins.
Here are some discard Crumpets, they turned out pretty good!
Hopefully some of this will help you on your way!
RobB'z Reef
2500 Club Member
do a wild culture, set it out next to your tank... i dare you haha.
OP
OP
This is ”Mad King Breadward the First”... he’s an upscaled Quarantiny starter.
I’ve taken care of several sourdough starters in professional bakeries (some 25+ years old) but never started my own, he’s the first I’ve started from scratch. I started it after finding @Wordloaf on Instagram, who started the Quarantiny starter movement since yeast is scarce these days, he’s worth looking up. He’s a chef and a writer for Cooks Illustrated (If my memory serves). I’ve learned a few things in the process and used a trick that I learned from a Chef at New England Culinary Institute 20+ years ago that helped me kick start him into existence.
Like others have said room temperature is enough, too warm and you are actually helping bacteria to grow. My house is 70F and Breadward lives on the counter (for now). He will eventually be moved to the fridge where he will live and require less work.
The trick I learned to ”jump start” the starter many years ago is that you can add a crushed grape skin to the starter and the natural yeast present on the skin will get you going. I didn’t have any grapes at the time of starting Breadward so I used a single raisin, figuring that the yeast would have survived the drying process, and lo and behold it worked like magic.
So in this experiment I’ve also learned you really want the dough you refresh the starter with between the consistency of wet bread dough and muffin batter. If it is too wet it won’t hold it’s structure and you won’t be able to tell when it’s doubled and it’s ok to refresh the starter again.
Another thing to consider is how much of the previous starter you add to the mixture to refresh the starter with. More is not always better, by adding more of the original starter you are actually increasing the byproducts that slow the growth of the culture and also introducing more of the bacteria that may be competing with the yeast if it’s struggling.
It’s going to stink at some point, you just need to keep refreshing the starter, It’s going to go from that nice yeasty smell, to althletes’ foot, stinky locker room funk smell, as long as you aren’t keeping it in too warm of a location 80+F then it will disappear and become it’s own smell. You have to remember there’s an evolution of different yeasts occuring in the starter and as their population densities change you’ll get different smells, some of which may not be pleasant, but it will get less funky as time goes on and develop it’s own character. The longer the starter survives the more unique and mature it becomes, it will take on it’s own identity (hence why we name them). (The older it gets the better it will be)
Always save your discard from the previous feeding incase your‘s crashes, you can use it to start over. Keep it in the fridge.
After your starter becomes active and mature enough you can save all the discard and use it to make things like Flap Jacks, Waffles, Crumpets, and English muffins.
Here are some discard Crumpets, they turned out pretty good!
Hopefully some of this will help you on your way!
Phenomenal write up. Thank you! And great pics!
I felt that my first starter was progressing nicely (before it was accidentally cooked in the oven)... and that one never went in the oven since our weather was a bit nicer. However, the second attempt was in the oven for the first 7 days. By the time I tossed it on day 16, it had been rising on a predictable schedule for 6 days, but would only rise 40%. I tried to work through the rotten egg smell, but it just got worse day after day. I suspected that I allowed for bad bacteria to take hold by putting it in the oven the first week, and sounds like it's a very likely culprit from everything you guys have told me.
I'm currently on day 4 of my third attempt and it's coming along great. It started developing a nice sweet smell by the second day, it had that funky smell yesterday, and is smelling a bit sweeter again today. Lots of activy first 48 hours, and not much activity last 36 hours, but you can see the signs of healthy yeast and bacteria developing.
Fingers crossed that this one does the trick.
OP
OP
the jar sat across the room from the tank with the lid open on the first day. does that count?
RobB'z Reef
2500 Club Member
We'll let you have that one!
OP
OP
All these pictures in this thread make me drool every time I scroll past them.
swiss1939
Well-Known Member
Mine was also like yours in that first few days it was really active but then appeared to stop on day 4. I just left it for a few days until i could see some water separation on the top which meant had eaten all the food and needed to be fed again. Did that twice which was about 2 days between feedings, then after 2 feedings and four days it was crazy active again. So don't stick so religiously to schedules but react to its behavior. It's young, so it will have wild swings just like your reef tank when new.
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