Still struggling with phosphates...

[Shawn_epicurious]

I just re-read this thread : ) ...from a hobbiest standpoint, yes, you need to know a little science, but, really... this is an art. I kind of just figured out I need to do what works for me. I am starting to understand why there are so many.... well thought out... opinions on how to do this.

My feeding habits... my cleaning habits, my water change habits, my dosing habits (should I go on?) There are also way too many products out there for a hobbies to really understand them all... so, we try one... it doesn’t work... we try something else... and it sort of works, but screws up something else. ...adjust... and somehow, I end up in the right place with my numbers... so I stick with it.

This thread has been very enlightening.

 

[Lasse]

Some thoughts about readings of PO4 in water. What we are reading is the left over, the PO4 not used of photosynthetic organisms or not locked up by absorption or chemical flocculation. At every given moment - it does not matter if the readings is 0.05 or 10 mg/L according to algae growth - there is still unused PO4 in the water that the daily production of algae can use the next day. The only way. 0 of PO4 in the water column but much of other macro and micronutrients has shown to harm the photosynthesis by corals zooxanthellae and favor other organisms that are capable of using other PO4 sources (organic matter as an example) creating other forms of problems. What I try to say is that i does not matter - in the perspective of algae growth - how much the leftover is as long as it is a leftover. There is maybe one exception to this - very, very low levels of leftover can sometimes favour diatoms instead of green algae - there is levels in hell too. As long there is left overs - not matter how low they are - the last day´s production of algae have possibility to survive and produce new biomass the next day. The only way of handling this is favour grazers that can handle the situation and keep the aquarium clean from unwanted benthic algae. It is obvious that the amount of grazers needed is depended of the "standing stock" of algae biomass - with other words - the CUC should be introduced before you see any signs of algae problem and if you in an established aquarium see that the biomass of unwanted algae grow - just introduce more CUC and try to have as many different species as possible,

However - there can be other reason why you should not run the aquaria in high left over concentrations of PO4 but my belief is that algae growth is independent of PO4 left over concentrations as long as you notice any leftover- there can be threshold levels for some species but they are very, very low

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

There are also way too many products out there for a hobbies to really understand them all... so, we try one... it doesn’t work... we try something else... and it sort of works, but screws up something else. ...adjust... and somehow, I end up in the right place with my numbers... so I stick with it.

It is not hard to understand phosphate products if you are interested.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I don't think I have ever seen compelling evidence that lowering nutrient numbers has greatly reduced an algae issue. There are always other things being done at the same time. I would love to be wrong

IMO, it can be a tricky balancing act to starve algae (especially some types) and not corals, but I do think it can be done, especially if the corals will also be eating particulate foods.

 

[Shawn_epicurious]

It is not hard to understand phosphate products if you are interested.

It seems daunting right now because I am new to it... I am learning. This thread has been awesome.

 

[Nano sapiens]

IMO, it can be a tricky balancing act to starve algae (especially some types) and not corals, but I do think it can be done, especially if the corals will also be eating particulate foods.

I agree with this.

What I have seen over many years is that different types of alga have different minimum nutrient thresholds that determine if they can survive/persist, grow or just fade away. The majority of types that I have acquired from frag plugs have persisted for a time when employing low levels of PO4/NO3 ('undetectable' and <1 ppm, respectively), but tend to either grow slowly...or not at all. These low nutrient levels give the aquarist and the resident herbivores a chance to greatly reduce and/or eliminate many of the alga and coral can usually survive a very low nutrient situation for a few weeks if they are healthy with stored up lipid reserves and fed very lightly.

My current small system has been running for over 12 years and I've seen at least a half dozen species of green/brown/red alga come in on frags, but only one has visibly persisted (no matter the nutrient levels) over the entire life of the system. IME, employing a very low nutrient technique temporarily can be advantageous for a small system where herbivore choice is quite limited (and they are unable to control the alga at higher nutrient levels), but has inherent risks if carried too far...or for too long.

 

[Lasse]

IMO, it can be a tricky balancing act to starve algae (especially some types) and not corals, but I do think it can be done, especially if the corals will also be eating particulate foods.

Yes this have been the main road for many years now and was it not for organisms like cyanobacteria and dinoflagellates that's not always are depending of inorganic nutrients in the water - it maybe had works out with these low levels.

But IMO near all studies on real corals reefs (with PO4 levels between 0 and 0.04 mg/L) indicate that when the grazers disappear - the algae and probable an algadriven microbial loop takes over and kill the corals in nature

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Shawn_epicurious]

The PhosGaurd is working, but only when I put it in a reactor. I was at .22 ppm this morning and I did a media change today. I am expecting to be below .2 tomorrow morning... we will see.

Phosgaurd is an expensive option and a pain to keep up with. Replacing the media every 4 days in a reactor is a pain. I think I would like a dosing method better. I will use up all of my PhosGaurd first. I have a ... 2 week supply left... ish.

 

[Shawn_epicurious]

Yes this have been the main road for many years now and was it not for organisms like cyanobacteria and dinoflagellates that's not always are depending of inorganic nutrients in the water - it maybe had works out with these low levels.

But IMO near all studies on real corals reefs (with PO4 levels between 0 and 0.04 mg/L) indicate that when the grazers disappear - the algae and probable an algadriven microbial loop takes over and kill the corals in nature

Sincerely Lasse

That’s frightening

 

[Shawn_epicurious]

This is the best I have done so far! : )

 

[Shawn_epicurious]

I have not posted here in awhile... still fighting phosphates. Hannah checker today was .18. I have been using PhosGaurd in a reactor. ....it’s an expensive strategy. : ( I have been told it is the best approach, yet it is not getting me there... My water comes out of my RODI unit @ .05... already to high. By the time I mix my salt in, it’s at .13.....? Water changes will never help me reduce something running higher than that.

I have made every possible change to my feeding habits. If I feed less at this point; things will starve. So, the reason for posting here...

I am trying something new.... (using less than the “recommended amount”) conservatively. Phosphate-E and NO3-PO4-X... NOPHOX.

Am I approaching this wrong?

 

[Lasse]

During all this discussion I had a postulate and that was that you have the right numbers from your Hanna. I have to change this now. You have the exactly same model as I have and I have been in exactly the same situation as you with one exception. My tank was just on the brink to crash when a Triton ICP test shows that my PO4 was 0.02 ppm - not 0.1 as my HI774 shows. Nowadays - I use my HI-774 in order to see if my PO4 level is constant or not and accept the figures it shown as long as my corals going fine. At least my example of the HI - 774 is rather unstable with it reading. The accuracy that should be ± 0.02 mg/L often show ±0.04 mg/L when I do several test after each other. Nowadays - I use 2 vial with test water. 1 that it is the zero and one that it is the sample. Before adding reagent to the sample tube - I control that both shows zero in calibration. I take the zero samples and do the process till C2 shows up. Switch the vials and do a short press on the bottom. With a short press it start to analyse direct - without the 3 minutes colouring up time. If it show zero - I start the process and add reagent to the sample vial. If not showing zero - I clean the vials again I´m following the process with 2 minutes shaking - after that I zero the meter with help of the zero vial - when C2 shows up I switch the vials and do a long press - starting the 3 minutes colouring time. When I get an answer - I write it down. Now - a new zeroing with help of the zero sample. At C2 change the vials again and do a short press - starting to analyse directly. I repeat this till I have 10 readings - take the average.

I have notice that at least my HI 774 is very sensitive for how I shake the sample. If I shake it very carefully - I get a more steady reading and lower. at my job - I use HI 713 instead and I feel like that meter is more stable.

What I´m trying to say is that try to validate your results with another instrument or method - and look more at your corals instead for your meter.

Here is some threads where this is discussed

Can weather affect icp test

I bought an ATI ICP test for the first time. Does anyone know if outside temperatures when mailing them off affect the water samples?

www.reef2reef.com

phosphate questions

Can someone please give me some good references on what I can expect to see with different phosphate levels? What happens to SPS in high phosphate levels? what happens to them in low phosphate levels? What happens to phosphate throughout the day? does it swing in some sort of sine wave? Does it...

www.reef2reef.com

SAMPLE STORAGE AND ITS IMPACT ON PHOSPHATE MEASUREMENT

SAMPLE STORAGE AND ITS IMPACT ON PHOSPHATE MEASUREMENT In a discussion on R2R @BigJohnny posed a question about why his Hanna ULR Phosphorous test results were significantly higher (2-3 times) than his ICP test results…. Here is a link to the discussion...

www.reef2reef.com

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Shawn_epicurious]

During all this discussion I had a postulate and that was that you have the right numbers from your Hanna. I have to change this now. You have the exactly same model as I have and I have been in exactly the same situation as you with one exception. My tank was just on the brink to crash when a Triton ICP test shows that my PO4 was 0.02 ppm - not 0.1 as my HI774 shows. Nowadays - I use my HI-774 in order to see if my PO4 level is constant or not and accept the figures it shown as long as my corals going fine. At least my example of the HI - 774 is rather unstable with it reading. The accuracy that should be ± 0.02 mg/L often show ±0.04 mg/L when I do several test after each other. Nowadays - I use 2 vial with test water. 1 that it is the zero and one that it is the sample. Before adding reagent to the sample tube - I control that both shows zero in calibration. I take the zero samples and do the process till C2 shows up. Switch the vials and do a short press on the bottom. With a short press it start to analyse direct - without the 3 minutes colouring up time. If it show zero - I start the process and add reagent to the sample vial. If not showing zero - I clean the vials again I´m following the process with 2 minutes shaking - after that I zero the meter with help of the zero vial - when C2 shows up I switch the vials and do a long press - starting the 3 minutes colouring time. When I get an answer - I write it down. Now - a new zeroing with help of the zero sample. At C2 change the vials again and do a short press - starting to analyse directly. I repeat this till I have 10 readings - take the average.

I have notice that at least my HI 774 is very sensitive for how I shake the sample. If I shake it very carefully - I get a more steady reading and lower. at my job - I use HI 713 instead and I feel like that meter is more stable.

What I´m trying to say is that try to validate your results with another instrument or method - and look more at your corals instead for your meter.

Here is some threads where this is discussed

Can weather affect icp test

I bought an ATI ICP test for the first time. Does anyone know if outside temperatures when mailing them off affect the water samples?

www.reef2reef.com

phosphate questions

Can someone please give me some good references on what I can expect to see with different phosphate levels? What happens to SPS in high phosphate levels? what happens to them in low phosphate levels? What happens to phosphate throughout the day? does it swing in some sort of sine wave? Does it...

www.reef2reef.com

SAMPLE STORAGE AND ITS IMPACT ON PHOSPHATE MEASUREMENT

SAMPLE STORAGE AND ITS IMPACT ON PHOSPHATE MEASUREMENT In a discussion on R2R @BigJohnny posed a question about why his Hanna ULR Phosphorous test results were significantly higher (2-3 times) than his ICP test results…. Here is a link to the discussion...

www.reef2reef.com

Sincerely Lasse

Sounds like I have some more reading to do... on the HAnnan checker. You mentioned a short press and a long press. I am not aware of that as a function of the tool. I do have an ICP kit here. I think it is time for me to use it.

Thank you for this Lasse!

 

[Maxx Yung]

I have not posted here in awhile... still fighting phosphates. Hannah checker today was .18. I have been using PhosGaurd in a reactor. ....it’s an expensive strategy. : ( I have been told it is the best approach, yet it is not getting me there... My water comes out of my RODI unit @ .05... already to high. By the time I mix my salt in, it’s at .13.....? Water changes will never help me reduce something running higher than that.

I have made every possible change to my feeding habits. If I feed less at this point; things will starve. So, the reason for posting here...

I am trying something new.... (using less than the “recommended amount”) conservatively. Phosphate-E and NO3-PO4-X... NOPHOX.

Am I approaching this wrong?

Hey, same problem as you.
As said, I am running PhosGuard on a similar size tank as yours (200g, 160g volume of water), and it is just not cost effective for that size of tank. If your phosphates are under .15~ or so, I would think PhosGuard would work. But anything higher, Phosphat-E is definitely (at least for me) the way to go. Buy the smallest amount - it'll last you probably a year. I went from 1.00 to 0.5 in 1.5 months (0.1 a week reduction = 0.6 total reduction, 0.1 from probably feeding, salt mix, or phosphate leech from rock).

The smallest bottle is dirt cheap at $20. Problem is you would also need an IV dripper (amazon, $10 for mine I think), and 1 or 5 micron socks.

You should read into using LaCl (which is Phosphat-E). What I got from reading tons of forums is:
1. Spread out dosage throughout the day (hence, IV bag)
2. Reduce maximum 0.1 a week, or if you can, 0.02 a day.
3. Must use 1 or 5 micron sock.
4. Stop immediately if you see your fish struggling to breathe.
5. Your Alk will drop, make sure to test.

 

[Daddy-o]

Hey, same problem as you.
As said, I am running PhosGuard on a similar size tank as yours (200g, 160g volume of water), and it is just not cost effective for that size of tank. If your phosphates are under .15~ or so, I would think PhosGuard would work. But anything higher, Phosphat-E is definitely (at least for me) the way to go. Buy the smallest amount - it'll last you probably a year. I went from 1.00 to 0.5 in 1.5 months (0.1 a week reduction = 0.6 total reduction, 0.1 from probably feeding, salt mix, or phosphate leech from rock).

The smallest bottle is dirt cheap at $20. Problem is you would also need an IV dripper (amazon, $10 for mine I think), and 1 or 5 micron socks.

You should read into using LaCl (which is Phosphat-E). What I got from reading tons of forums is:
1. Spread out dosage throughout the day (hence, IV bag)
2. Reduce maximum 0.1 a week, or if you can, 0.02 a day.
3. Must use 1 or 5 micron sock.
4. Stop immediately if you see your fish struggling to breathe.
5. Your Alk will drop, make sure to test.

I have the same issue as OP. Just started L/C.

 

[Shawn_epicurious]

Hey, same problem as you.
As said, I am running PhosGuard on a similar size tank as yours (200g, 160g volume of water), and it is just not cost effective for that size of tank. If your phosphates are under .15~ or so, I would think PhosGuard would work. But anything higher, Phosphat-E is definitely (at least for me) the way to go. Buy the smallest amount - it'll last you probably a year. I went from 1.00 to 0.5 in 1.5 months (0.1 a week reduction = 0.6 total reduction, 0.1 from probably feeding, salt mix, or phosphate leech from rock).

The smallest bottle is dirt cheap at $20. Problem is you would also need an IV dripper (amazon, $10 for mine I think), and 1 or 5 micron socks.

You should read into using LaCl (which is Phosphat-E). What I got from reading tons of forums is:
1. Spread out dosage throughout the day (hence, IV bag)
2. Reduce maximum 0.1 a week, or if you can, 0.02 a day.
3. Must use 1 or 5 micron sock.
4. Stop immediately if you see your fish struggling to breathe.
5. Your Alk will drop, make sure to test.

Thank you for the pointers on using this product! I had not considered an IV dripper. Excellent idea.

 

[Daddy-o]

We are over here:
Did I unlock all the phosphate from 100#s of live rock?

 

[schuby]

Sounds like I have some more reading to do... on the HAnnan checker. You mentioned a short press and a long press. I am not aware of that as a function of the tool. I do have an ICP kit here. I think it is time for me to use it.

Thank you for this Lasse!

Regarding the short press and long press...

After you zero out the meter and it shows "C2", you are supposed to shake the sample with the packet added for 2 minutes. When you put the vial back in the tester, you have two options:

1. Short button press: test is performed immediately
2. Long button press (hold until countdown starts): test will be performed after 3 minute countdown
   1. This is the normal procedure

 

[Shawn_epicurious]

Regarding the short press and long press...

After you zero out the meter and it shows "C2", you are supposed to shake the sample with the packet added for 2 minutes. When you put the vial back in the tester, you have two options:

1. Short button press: test is performed immediately
2. Long button press (hold until countdown starts): test will be performed after 3 minute countdown
   1. This is the normal procedure

Thank you for that!

 

[Cooldude7877]

I found there are a couple of ways to lower your phosphates which includes looking at the salt that you use, the food that you feed, how much you feed, how often you feed, and how often you clean. In my case I use either Reef Crystals or Fritz so the phosphates really arent coming from that. I am guilty as many of us are at overfeeding my fish and corals, so to counteract that I only feed them 4 days a week instead of 7. I change 100 gallons of my 300 gallon tank bi weekly, and still my phosphates are high. So lastly, I got a phosphate bio pellet reactor and as long as I keep that filled and running properly, my phosphates have dropped to near 0. With using the bio pellet reactor, it works great but you have to be careful as depending on the corals you have if there is to much of a drop to fast it could kill them.