Tang: White spots or flukes ? Next steps?

[tenurepro]

Hi guys. Got a kole tang, put him in a 10 gal qt. Looked good eats very well, noted a little white blob on dorsal fin on day two... next day noticed another white spot on cheek. Decided that I should treat it as ich. Did TTM, 7 transfers in 14 days. (2 days apart). I did these in 5 gal buckets with dedicated heaters and pvc elbows; dosed 1.5 ml of prime to keep water cleanish. Couldn't really observe fish in buckets but noted that white blob on dorsal fin disappeared a few days into ttm.

When the 14 day ttm was over, I put the tang back into the qt (which was disinfected and left Dry over the 14 day ttm. This happened on Friday night.
The plan was to do two rounds of prazi pro before adding to display.

I dosed 2.4 ml of prazi pro on sat morning. While feeding the fish, I noticed one little white blob on pectoral fin, and one big white blob on the bottom of the jaw.
Hmmm... is it ich that escaped the ttm? I realized near the end of the ttm that one of the heaters would trap a tiny amount of water, that had to be shaken out, so likely didn't air dry fully between transfers.
Or did The tang have a flukes or another external parasite all along.

I assumed the worst and started cuperamine on Saturday night, per manufacturer's instruction. Today I finally got to 0.5 mg/L copper, which I am supposed to hold for 14 days. Fish is eating very well and looks healthy. I was planing on doing a 25 % water change (@ 0.5 mg/L copper) and second round of prazi on Thursday, 5 days after first round.

The white blobs are still on the tang,
3 days post prazipro.

Question is- is there a way to definitively ascertain if the blobs are ich or flukes or other parasites? If I do a fw dip, and the blobs stay on, then does that fully support ich ?

I just don't want to subject the tang to copper if it is flukes that I am looking at?

Thanks for your help!

Ps. If you are wondering why I didn't take a picture.... well I tried, but the tang moves so fast and s(he) is camera shy. Also the blob on the bottom of the jaw can only be seen from underneath which is a hard angle to photograph.

 

[aykwm]

Did you check for flukes symptoms?

Symptoms

Fish can become lethargic, swim near the water surface, develop clamped fins, hide in the corner of the aquarium or behind rocks, lose appetite, shake the head, flash, or scratch. They may exhibit yawning, cloudy eyes and loss of color at the insertion site. For example, Neobenedenia prefers the face, lips and eyes; therefore you may notice the skin color faded in those areas. If flukes are present in the gills they may be swollen and pale, increase respiration, and begin piping (gulping air at the water surface). Fish generally become less tolerant of low oxygen conditions. Secondary infections are also very common. Some fish may not show any symptoms at all which is why quarantining is so important.

FW dip will definitely identify if it's fluke or not. I am not sure about this (experts will definitely correct me) but if I remember correctly if you already dosed prazipro you might not see the worms since they are already dead and won't go out, if this is true then it might be flukes but you won't see anything when doing FW dip.

Anyway, since you started copper treatment, my suggestion is to complete it and dose the second round of prazipro to complete the treatment for flukes.

 

[tenurepro]

No symptoms expect for white spots; fish is other wise healthy. Normal behavior, eating, very alert and cautious, not flashing or rubbing, fins and body in good shape. Only sign of anything unusual is the few white blobs.

I think I want to do the fw dip now. My reason is that if the white blobs fall off, then I can confirm ich vs flukes. If I wait and the blobs disappear, then I will never know if it is flukes dying from prazi or ich detaching and dying from copper. But it may be better to just continue with both treatments as the tang is tolerating them well for now

 

[ngoodermuth]

Are you certain it's not lympho? "Blobs" sounds more like lympho where ich is more "spots".

Fish with lymphocystis for reference:

Lympho is viral and only treated with good nutrition and clean water.

FW dip will confirm flukes if they are present. And, it doesn't hurt to complete the copper treatment prophylactically since velvet is so common of late.

 

[Maritimer]

Beat me to it!

+1

~Bruce

 

[melypr1985]

All great advice here! FW dip to confirm/rule out flukes. The "blob" description does indeed sound more like lympho than ich.

 

[tenurepro]

Thanks all! Hadn't consider lympho. Does lympho appear to 'move' (blob on dorsal fin and cheek, which disappear and now we have blobs on mouth and pectoral fin) ?
So - fw dip can role out flukes.

 

[melypr1985]

Thanks all! Hadn't consider lympho. Does lympho appear to 'move' (blob on dorsal fin and cheek, which disappear and now we have blobs on mouth and pectoral fin) ?
So - fw dip can role out flukes.

Think of Lympho like you would a cold sore in humans. They can come and go as your body's immune system fluctuates. Mostly they stay in one spot and get larger for a bit, then the body fights the virus off and it goes away. It's not generally something that will only be present for a couple days and pop up else where the next couple days like your describing. Though, this could just be that I'm not understanding what you mean. Try the freshwater dip and try to get a decent video or picture of him for us.

 

[tenurepro]

Think of Lympho like you would a cold sore in humans. They can come and go as your body's immune system fluctuates. Mostly they stay in one spot and get larger for a bit, then the body fights the virus off and it goes away. It's not generally something that will only be present for a couple days and pop up else where the next couple days like your describing. Though, this could just be that I'm not understanding what you mean. Try the freshwater dip and try to get a decent video or picture of him for us.

Thanks - super helpful video. One quick question before I do the fw dip; can the fw dip be administered during copper treatment; any risk of stress-induced copper poisoning? He is tolerating the copper really well and is in great shape now

 

[melypr1985]

Thanks - super helpful video. One quick question before I do the fw dip; can the fw dip be administered during copper treatment; any risk of stress-induced copper poisoning? He is tolerating the copper really well and is in great shape now

Yes, you can do the freshwater dip now if he needs it.

 

[tenurepro]

Hi All. I didn't do the fw bath after all as I didn't want to stress the fish given I was already treating with prazipro and cuperamine. I did two round of prazipro and I am 10 days into cuperamine.
Yesterday I notice some tan colored splotches above and back of the tang's eyes, on both sides of the body

Is that something that I should be worried about and treat? Water quality issues? I did do a 20% water change yesterday (adding cuperamine to the new water to keep dose stable). Will likely do another wc today also
Thanks for your help!

 

[4FordFamily]

I would just keep water quality high - I would keep an eye on the tan colored blotches but it's not particularly alarming to me right now.

Another thing you might want to have on hand in case this or anything else leads to an infection (somewhat common with flukes or any parasite once cleared up)

I keep kanaplex, metroplex, and furan 2 on hand.

 

[tenurepro]

I have API General cure on hand, which I think contains the same antibiotic as metroplex ? Also have melafix which is touted to help with bacterial infections. I am not sure if either of these can be introduced with coperamine though, will have to do some research

 

[Maritimer]

General Cure is essentially Metronidazole (active ingredient in Metroplex) and Praziquantel (active ingredient in Prazi-Pro). It's pretty useful stuff.

It could help, and I've used it with Coppersafe, both in food and in the water. (Ideally, you'd want to do one or the other, not both at the same time . . . )

~Bruce

 

[srad750c]

yellow tang has lympo, back in the day, we would paint spots with iodine, after 1 hour bath in quick cure, 1 ml per gallon of tank H2O. do three days in a row

 

[Humblefish]

yellow tang has lympo, back in the day, we would paint spots with iodine, after 1 hour bath in quick cure, 1 ml per gallon of tank H2O. do three days in a row

This is a pretty invasive procedure to treat a virus which usually subsides on its own given time.

 

[srad750c]

So, what do you suggest? No more invasive as a FW dip or adding medications to treatment tank water for 7 days, that usually doesn't do any good. Iodine actually has antiviral and antibiotic properties. Oh by the way, this actually works in most cases. I have worked in two different LFS for about 20 years total time and this is the treatment we used. It only gets worse without treatment, doesn't matter if H2O quality is excellent. in the future I guess iI should keep my advice to myself..

 

[melypr1985]

So, what do you suggest? No more invasive as a FW dip or adding medications to treatment tank water for 7 days, that usually doesn't do any good. Iodine actually has antiviral and antibiotic properties. Oh by the way, this actually works in most cases. I have worked in two different LFS for about 20 years total time and this is the treatment we used. It only gets worse without treatment, doesn't matter if H2O quality is excellent. in the future I guess iI should keep my advice to myself..

Lympho will go away on it's own depending on conditions and diet. I also work at an LFS and see this all the time. It's rarely fatal and usually just makes the fish look ugly for a while. Freshwater dips and meds aren't needed with lympho, so removing the fish to apply iodine to the spots is invasive when all they need is time, good water quality, low stress and high quality food for it to go away. Handling a fish with your hands is always going to be invasive and rarely something we suggest doing unless it's the only way... even then gloves are important.

There's no need to keep advice to yourself. We always welcome opinions and advice of all kinds! Being this is a public forum though, you may encounter people who disagree with your advice and will likely say so (hopefully in a kind way). It's up the reader to decide who's advice makes the most sense.

 

[Humblefish]

Lympho will go away on it's own depending on conditions and diet. I also work at an LFS and see this all the time. It's rarely fatal and usually just makes the fish look ugly for a while. Freshwater dips and meds aren't needed with lympho, so removing the fish to apply iodine to the spots is invasive when all they need is time, good water quality, low stress and high quality food for it to go away. Handling a fish with your hands is always going to be invasive and rarely something we suggest doing unless it's the only way... even then gloves are important.

There's no need to keep advice to yourself. We always welcome opinions and advice of all kinds! Being this is a public forum though, you may encounter people who disagree with your advice and will likely say so (hopefully in a kind way). It's up the reader to decide who's advice makes the most sense.

^^ This; I didn't mean to sound harsh, and I apologize if that's how my response came across.

I believe all medications/chemicals have harmful side effects and can be harsh on fish. However, there are many situations (parasites, worms, bacterial diseases) where the use of such is a "necessary evil". At least for the time being. But being Lymphocystis nodules are caused by a virus which lives inside the fish's body, and there is no known cure, it's best to just ride it out until the immune system gets symptoms under control. Until the next outbreak.

 

[tenurepro]

Thanks all; I should mention that the white spots on the fish are gone; I didn't do a fresh water dip, so will are not able to fully confirm ich vs flukes vs lympho. The odd discoloration around the face continues though, hard to take a picture as the fish is very spooky. It appears that the scales around the face are abraded or pitting. I am guess a bacterial infection or some intolerance to cuperamine? It's been near 18 days at therapeutic dose of copper, so I decided to do a couple of large water changes to clear the cuperamine out of the system, then did a dose of API genera cure to help with the possible bacterial infection - it has the same antibiotic as metroplex. This fish has been frustrating to qt; seems like whenever we are done with one ailment, another symptom presents itself