The 240g is Imminent: Budgeting Stocking

[Wandering Albatross]

FWIW I have a similar FOWLR (300 gallons) everyone gets along fine. I did it in 3 shipments a few months apart. I have some of the fish on your list that have been swapped out for others. Mine are mostly adults they get along fine. There is definitely some nipped fins occasionally but no murders. I will say that only having 1 type of Acanthurus tang is good idea and should be on the last shipment. Here's my list.

1. Golden Puffer
2. Foxface Rabbitfish
3. Magnificent foxface
4. Humu Humu Triggerfish
5. Clown Triggerfish
6. Emporer Angelfish
7. Queen Angelfish
8. Blue face Koi Tang
9. Blue jaw trigger Male
10. Blue Jaw Trigger Female
11. Harliquin Tusk
12. Blond Naso Tang
13. Blue Face Angel
14. Yellow Corus wrasse
15. Unicorn Tang
16. Bird Wrasse Male
17. Bird Wrasse Female
18. Yellow Eye Kole Tang
19. Achillies tang
20. Mocha Storm clown
21. Mocha Storm clown

Nice list.

I totally get the risks with multiple acanthurus tangs, I’ve done extensive research on the how’s and whys of their behavior, but a major dream of mine remains to eventually have a tank of suitable size (or compatible personalities) to safely keep the Golden Triad. Full grown, healthy, tolerant trio consisting of the clown, sohal, and Achilles tangs. The equivalent of the fish mafia.

If it takes something larger then an 8x4’ 540g, if it takes them coming in at the same size and being held in side by side acclimation boxes for the first few days, if it takes several tries and tons of feeding stations, someday I want to make it happen.

 

[cycletim]

Nice list.

I totally get the risks with multiple acanthurus tangs, I’ve done extensive research on the how’s and whys of their behavior, but a major dream of mine remains to eventually have a tank of suitable size (or compatible personalities) to safely keep the Golden Triad. Full grown, healthy, tolerant trio consisting of the clown, sohal, and Achilles tangs. The equivalent of the fish mafia.

If it takes something larger then an 8x4’ 540g, if it takes them coming in at the same size and being held in side by side acclimation boxes for the first few days, if it takes several tries and tons of feeding stations, someday I want to make it happen.

Sounds like you are doing your research and doing your best. Im sure you know this, on the achillies give some good flow. It doesn't have to be a hurricane in there but, it should be a high energy flow if that makes sense. Also , on you aquascape if you are going to do NSA try to have a Little Rock stocking for some good hiding spots and stuff for less boisterous fish.

 

[Wandering Albatross]

Sounds like you are doing your research and doing your best. Im sure you know this, on the achillies give some good flow. It doesn't have to be a hurricane in there but, it should be a high energy flow if that makes sense. Also , on you aquascape if you are going to do NSA try to have a Little Rock stocking for some good hiding spots and stuff for less boisterous fish.

Yeah, was thinking strong turbulent flow in the upper areas and a few major swim lanes, and calmer waters near various cave systems. I may even leave a strong narrow nozzle powerhead near the top on 100% constant flow mode. Easy to avoid by fish who want to, or a clear fish treadmill for those who really want to fight and play in the currents. The idea is lots of open space, and several standalone caves and structures. Eels will have a custom PVC style cave. The idea is for the more territorial fish to each claim an individual structure, instead of trying to claim the whole scape if it's all linked into one huge rock mass. Better flow, easier access, more breaking line of site, and separate patrol zones. Perhaps a tang claims the top area of the structure where grazing is good and there are deep, narrow crevices to wedge into, and a trigger claims the cave at the base. Realistically though, 8x4 is a considerable increase in space I can use for caves, so I may be able to get a cave for each, plus a few extras, so everyone can choose. Part of my thinking for attempting the Golden Triad was to pre-establish very distinct feeding stations, in distinct territories, in opposing corners of the system. We've all been over this, it's never a perfect situation, but my thinking is that they can each take a territory, with its own feeding station, and between the abundance of food, physical space, being raised together, and the presence of many other larger and hardy tankmates, they may learn to stick to their corners.

 

[cycletim]

Yeah, was thinking strong turbulent flow in the upper areas and a few major swim lanes, and calmer waters near various cave systems. I may even leave a strong narrow nozzle powerhead near the top on 100% constant flow mode. Easy to avoid by fish who want to, or a clear fish treadmill for those who really want to fight and play in the currents. The idea is lots of open space, and several standalone caves and structures. Eels will have a custom PVC style cave. The idea is for the more territorial fish to each claim an individual structure, instead of trying to claim the whole scape if it's all linked into one huge rock mass. Better flow, easier access, more breaking line of site, and separate patrol zones. Perhaps a tang claims the top area of the structure where grazing is good and there are deep, narrow crevices to wedge into, and a trigger claims the cave at the base. Realistically though, 8x4 is a considerable increase in space I can use for caves, so I may be able to get a cave for each, plus a few extras, so everyone can choose. Part of my thinking for attempting the Golden Triad was to pre-establish very distinct feeding stations, in distinct territories, in opposing corners of the system. We've all been over this, it's never a perfect situation, but my thinking is that they can each take a territory, with its own feeding station, and between the abundance of food, physical space, being raised together, and the presence of many other larger and hardy tankmates, they may learn to stick to their corners.

Wow great plan. Try to put the triggers and tangs in on the same day at the end of the process is all I think I could advise. Sounds like you have a good plan.

 

[Wandering Albatross]

Wow great plan. Try to put the triggers and tangs in on the same day at the end of the process is all I think I could advise. Sounds like you have a good plan.

The idea was to add any tangs together towards the end, with the exception of perhaps a naso. I’ve heard that they’re generally peaceful as far as tangs go. Might let him get settled for a little bit before adding the more aggressive tangs, or at least add him bigger than the others. Bonus if he becomes a tank boss even temporarily, might help keep the others in line and establish a smoother hierarchy transition. Might not too, but still.

 

[Wandering Albatross]

In addition, what size sump should I realistically need for this tank? It offers the option to include a 75g sump for an extra $500+ which seems a little small to me for this tank size. I’d expect a 120 minimum, and was looking at a 150-300g brute Rubbermaid stock tank. I’d like the look of a glass or acrylic sump, but for the size it’s hard to beat the Rubbermaid, assuming it’s safe for that. It does present some issues if I tried to baffle it, and it’s that much more water I need to heat, though the room temperature seems to be increasingly stable with the addition of more tanks, so that may help to some extent.

If a 75 is sufficient, I’d rather buy an empty 75 and build it from scratch, I’m going for a more open sump concept. Ideally, the sump would be mostly an extra rock and macro refugium, with the heaters and a skimmer, and a sectioned off area for deep 6”+ sand. Willing to consider a high nutrient-draining soft coral that can just take over a section. Was thinking some utility inverts if applicable, or it can backup as emergency fish holding in the event someone needs to be separated.

 

[cycletim]

In addition, what size sump should I realistically need for this tank? It offers the option to include a 75g sump for an extra $500+ which seems a little small to me for this tank size. I’d expect a 120 minimum, and was looking at a 150-300g brute Rubbermaid stock tank. I’d like the look of a glass or acrylic sump, but for the size it’s hard to beat the Rubbermaid, assuming it’s safe for that. It does present some issues if I tried to baffle it, and it’s that much more water I need to heat, though the room temperature seems to be increasingly stable with the addition of more tanks, so that may help to some extent.

If a 75 is sufficient, I’d rather buy an empty 75 and build it from scratch, I’m going for a more open sump concept. Ideally, the sump would be mostly an extra rock and macro refugium, with the heaters and a skimmer, and a sectioned off area for deep 6”+ sand. Willing to consider a high nutrient-draining soft coral that can just take over a section. Was thinking some utility inverts if applicable, or it can backup as emergency fish holding in the event someone needs to be separated.

If this is a true FOWLR you only need a good skimmer/filter socks/pads, heater. Aswell, as space in the sump for an activated carbon reactor. If you care about phos than a reactor for GFO aswell. You do not need a refugium. If you are doing coral than yah big sump but don't fill the entire cabinet with the sump leave some space for an eco flow/ATO etc.. or whatever else. Depending on where you live a chiller also for Reef or FOWLR.

 

[cycletim]

The idea was to add any tangs together towards the end, with the exception of perhaps a naso. I’ve heard that they’re generally peaceful as far as tangs go. Might let him get settled for a little bit before adding the more aggressive tangs, or at least add him bigger than the others. Bonus if he becomes a tank boss even temporarily, might help keep the others in line and establish a smoother hierarchy transition. Might not too, but still.

In my tank the Naso and Unicorn are the largest aside from puffer. The clown trigger is the boss. The huma used to sit in second place but, now that we have an Achillies it seems to have changed. The huma is nicer now actually to the other fish. He used to pick on the blue jaws and the tusk. The Naso and unicorn are not push overs they are still tangs but, they are mostly peaceful the nip at each other form time to time but, thats normal. However, they don't do the dominate thing to the other fish like the Achilles/ Clown. The Achillies addition calmed things down in my case by calming down the huma. It's all anecdotal every tank is different. No one messes with the puffer he sits in his cave mostly like Jabba the hut.

 

[Wandering Albatross]

If this is a true FOWLR you only need a good skimmer/filter socks/pads, heater. Aswell, as space in the sump for an activated carbon reactor. If you care about phos than a reactor for GFO aswell. You do not need a refugium. If you are doing coral than yah big sump but don't fill the entire cabinet with the sump leave some space for an eco flow/ATO etc.. or whatever else. Depending on where you live a chiller also for Reef or FOWLR.

Understandably, needs differ between FOWLRs and reefs, especially high end sps reefs, and the DT is intended as a FOWLR with carbon to be safe. I was thinking refugium to help with excess nutrient export, given the heavy feeding needs of this tank, plus the overall bioload of the large fish. I try to run minimal water changes on my larger tanks, as it's quite the workout doing a 20-someodd percent water change on something that big when you can't just hook a hose up and send it through a drain in the floor. I'd love a setup like that one day, but isn't currently an option, which means hauling 5g buckets out the door over and over, so vacuuming waste and nutrient export is my go-to. Also, excess pods and mayhaps fresh macro if the tangs will eat it. I've heard some are picky about certain fresh macros. I wasn't planning on filter socks, though I could add them, just a low flow sump with a high powered skimmer, the heaters, and tons of extra rock with macros and a light over it. I wouldn't even be opposed (depending on the size and layout) to keep small utility inverts/fish/filter feeders, or even a handful of live feeder shrimp for an occasional treat. Let them hang out and graze on biofilm and/or detritus until I need them.

I don't plan on this tank having coral for coral sake, rather for nutrient export or enrichment, so if it won't hurt the fish, I don't mind high nutrients, as algae will get grazed down by probably half my stock or better anyway. But something that helps a little would be nice. If I can strike a balance between nutrients high enough to feed the algae that'll keep the tangs fat and happy, and low enough to not cause algae overgrowth or any health issues with the fish themselves, with minimal water changes, that'd be ideal. When I do water changes on big tanks, I want it to be a once in a while major chore. Besides, I could always pull pod hotels out of that sump and add them to my smaller tanks for pod repopulation.

Obviously not perfect, I have a multitude of concepts I'd like to run through to see how they can help, while ensuring I have enough countermeasures so that they can't turn the tank upside-down, or if they do, I can right the situation before it escalates. I shall now await the assault of the water change police...

 

[Wandering Albatross]

In my tank the Naso and Unicorn are the largest aside from puffer. The clown trigger is the boss. The huma used to sit in second place but, now that we have an Achillies it seems to have changed. The huma is nicer now actually to the other fish. He used to pick on the blue jaws and the tusk. The Naso and unicorn are not push overs they are still tangs but, they are mostly peaceful the nip at each other form time to time but, thats normal. However, they don't do the dominate thing to the other fish like the Achilles/ Clown. The Achillies addition calmed things down in my case by calming down the huma. It's all anecdotal every tank is different. No one messes with the puffer he sits in his cave mostly like Jabba the hut.

Part of my hope is that having several top dog fish will actually chill out or curb the aggression of the more aggressive fish, in a similar fashion as described. I know it's never guaranteed, but I want to see what makes these fish tick. Is it personality, not enough perceived food, space, territory, the other fish just being a pushover and too easy to bully? I always want to find out why certain fish work for some people, and not others.

 

[cycletim]

Understandably, needs differ between FOWLRs and reefs, especially high end sps reefs, and the DT is intended as a FOWLR with carbon to be safe. I was thinking refugium to help with excess nutrient export, given the heavy feeding needs of this tank, plus the overall bioload of the large fish. I try to run minimal water changes on my larger tanks, as it's quite the workout doing a 20-someodd percent water change on something that big when you can't just hook a hose up and send it through a drain in the floor. I'd love a setup like that one day, but isn't currently an option, which means hauling 5g buckets out the door over and over, so vacuuming waste and nutrient export is my go-to. Also, excess pods and mayhaps fresh macro if the tangs will eat it. I've heard some are picky about certain fresh macros. I wasn't planning on filter socks, though I could add them, just a low flow sump with a high powered skimmer, the heaters, and tons of extra rock with macros and a light over it. I wouldn't even be opposed (depending on the size and layout) to keep small utility inverts/fish/filter feeders, or even a handful of live feeder shrimp for an occasional treat. Let them hang out and graze on biofilm and/or detritus until I need them.

I don't plan on this tank having coral for coral sake, rather for nutrient export or enrichment, so if it won't hurt the fish, I don't mind high nutrients, as algae will get grazed down by probably half my stock or better anyway. But something that helps a little would be nice. If I can strike a balance between nutrients high enough to feed the algae that'll keep the tangs fat and happy, and low enough to not cause algae overgrowth or any health issues with the fish themselves, with minimal water changes, that'd be ideal. When I do water changes on big tanks, I want it to be a once in a while major chore. Besides, I could always pull pod hotels out of that sump and add them to my smaller tanks for pod repopulation.

Obviously not perfect, I have a multitude of concepts I'd like to run through to see how they can help, while ensuring I have enough countermeasures so that they can't turn the tank upside-down, or if they do, I can right the situation before it escalates. I shall now await the assault of the water change police...

My water changes are 50% once every 4 weeks. I dose 2 capfuls of PNS pro bio in the fish food everyday. I add PNS deep cycle dose when I do water changes. I also have about 10-12 Tampa Bay live rocks with my other rock and 15 gallons of their live sand on top of my crushed coral substrate. I have no algae problems, I only run the lights when people are home on a timer. The skimmer doesn't pull as much as you would think either. Water is crystal clear. So, although everything you are saying above is a great idea and you have a great plan maybe you dont have to manage all of that if you don't need to.

 

[Wandering Albatross]

My water changes are 50% once every 4 weeks. I dose 2 capfuls of PNS pro bio in the fish food everyday. I add PNS deep cycle dose when I do water changes. I also have about 10-12 Tampa Bay live rocks with my other rock and 15 gallons of their live sand on top of my crushed coral substrate. I have no algae problems, I only run the lights when people are home on a timer. The skimmer doesn't pull as much as you would think either. Water is crystal clear. So, although everything you are saying above is a great idea and you have a great plan maybe you dont have to manage all of that if you don't need to.

Ideally, I'm probably way overthinking it, as a FOWLR should be, in theory, considerably easier than a reef in terms of the stability and controlled lower nutrient levels widely accepted as mandatory, especially for sps dominant systems. I know I'm prone to overanalyzing, so I can't help that much, just trying to cover all my bases.

Admittedly, the simpler the setup, the better. I don't need this to be an overly-perfect, youtube-ready tank with tons of flashy coral and flawlessly clean glass. I want a safe, healthy environment to keep the showstopper huge FOWLR fish I still long for in this hobby. Something that makes non-fish people (weird as they are ) stop and stare. As long as my fish are chunky, healthy, active, and not slaughtering each other, that's all I want.

 

[cycletim]

Ideally, I'm probably way overthinking it, as a FOWLR should be, in theory, considerably easier than a reef in terms of the stability and controlled lower nutrient levels widely accepted as mandatory, especially for sps dominant systems. I know I'm prone to overanalyzing, so I can't help that much, just trying to cover all my bases.

Admittedly, the simpler the setup, the better. I don't need this to be an overly-perfect, youtube-ready tank with tons of flashy coral and flawlessly clean glass. I want a safe, healthy environment to keep the showstopper huge FOWLR fish I still long for in this hobby. Something that makes non-fish people (weird as they are ) stop and stare. As long as my fish are chunky, healthy, active, and not slaughtering each other, that's all I want.

Well said, I forgot to mention UV, Get a good one if it's in the budget.

 

[Wandering Albatross]

Well said, I forgot to mention UV, Get a good one if it's in the budget.

I can probably swing it into the budget, but one needed for something that big would be pretty pricy, no? Was going to try to get every fish quarantined, or quarantine them individually or in small groups myself, given how fragile some tangs are. Depends to some extent on availability though too.

Can save some for UV if I used the brute stock tank for a simple-ish sump, can always upgrade that later if need be. Can allocate more funds to a UV if I can find strong enough non-vortech powerheads, was thinking a couple Jebao SOW-20s, plus a few gyres. I have 2 of the SOWs and I know they can move water as long as they stay clean, but whether it's enough to keep it moving across an 8x4 remains to be seen.

 

[cycletim]

I can probably swing it into the budget, but one needed for something that big would be pretty pricy, no? Was going to try to get every fish quarantined, or quarantine them individually or in small groups myself, given how fragile some tangs are. Depends to some extent on availability though too.

Can save some for UV if I used the brute stock tank for a simple-ish sump, can always upgrade that later if need be. Can allocate more funds to a UV if I can find strong enough non-vortech powerheads, was thinking a couple Jebao SOW-20s, plus a few gyres. I have 2 of the SOWs and I know they can move water as long as they stay clean, but whether it's enough to keep it moving across an 8x4 remains to be seen.

I have a ai orbit 4 at the top on pulse 0-100% every 30 seconds 15 second pause. makes decent wave on the top of the water. Aswell as two Nero 7's on the same side. I have a high energy side with all the flow on the left and the more powerful side of the return pump on the right. The smaller fish tend to stay on the right and the bigger ones go swim against the flow on the left. I have 2 overflow towers the left is the slow side with the UV and chiller the right is a direct as possible. They are on a "pond pump" although it's just a jumbo aquarium pump. You can pick up Uv's on market place deeply discounted where I live.

 

[Wandering Albatross]

I have a ai orbit 4 at the top on pulse 0-100% every 30 seconds 15 second pause. makes decent wave on the top of the water. Aswell as two Nero 7's on the same side. I have a high energy side with all the flow on the left and the more powerful side of the return pump on the right. The smaller fish tend to stay on the right and the bigger ones go swim against the flow on the left. I have 2 overflow towers the left is the slow side with the UV and chiller the right is a direct as possible. They are on a "pond pump" although it's just a jumbo aquarium pump. You can pick up Uv's on market place deeply discounted where I live.

I’d be skeptical of used bulbs personally, but perhaps it’s just my area. If I could get the fish to separate themselves like that it’d be nice, help keep them occupied and lessen aggression a little.