The greatest responsibility of new cyclers is fish disease prep, what are you doing to prepare?

[brandon429]

Team


no longer can you just buy pet store fish and add them to your cycled tank


its also still advisable that when you get a puppy, it gets specific preps to get disease prepped, been that way decades now. If your neighbor is able to keep puppies without parvo prep should we all follow suit? What works best for the masses can be different than what works for one, as self reported?

Our hobby is wasting fish, killing them unnecessarily, due to the rates of tank stocking that dont involve effective prep.

Q for everyone are you FOR or AGAINST QT

Like the title states are you for or against QT procedures on new fish?

www.reef2reef.com

when you read that link, what’s the majority doing? What’s the scientist doing? My recommends come from posts like that

Im claiming here if you aren’t prepping on purpose, you’re killing and wasting fish on purpose and it’s a form of dropped responsibility of the aquarist, you’re expected to protect animals you buy for personal entertainment


we don’t see many new setups trying what they say is best, we see skipping preps and the losses posted by and large, shortly after.

are you about to repeat those steps or are you addressing today’s emergent disease rates in creative ways? Post what you did as a new cycler to reduce the risk of fish disease.


are you copying a stocking approach that comes from Jays fish disease forum?

if not, are you copying a method that come from one persons reported outcome? How closely does your rock scape look like theirs, what other tank build similarities do you share with that reference method in your new cycled reef?

 

[brandon429]

Fish Disease Treatment and Diagnosis

A forum for discussing treatment and diagnosing saltwater reef fish.

www.reef2reef.com

questions regarding that clickable read:

what methods do Jay and Humblefish, the two strongest fish disease researchers we know, recommend for new cycled reefs? Is that what you used when adding the first clownfish into the reef?


what methods for fish disease prep are not found being used there? Are you using such a stocking approach?

as old as that forum is, it means something when each new year passes and fallow and quarantine still rule all top methods there, and on Humblefishs site. It means something that in 2022 we don’t see a sticky there for all natural, zero fish prep options.



if you scan the next ten pages of the new fish forum and see the loads of cycles we’ve completed, what trending do you notice regarding fish disease controls used by the new tank owners?

(in case you’re wondering, 99.9% forego all preps happily with their quick cycled bottle bac system)


it’s no longer just a recommend—the hobby has shifted into downright responsibility to prepare your tank and your fish, it’s not permissible to add them without preps as that is forwarding the massive loss rates we see in that forum above. It’s not an accident to overlook preps, it’s the same as buying puppies and skipping preps with them then posting in amazement when they’re dead every few months


we have been so nice about it, the buckets of dead fish are piling up and it’s time to inform new tank owners of the correct responsibility they just bought into with the new reef.

at any time anyone can opt into pico reefing, exit from the fish kill perspective and focus on corals lol then ur guilt free.


This thread is to intercept those who didn’t know. Apply the same standards to your marine fish that you do with your dogs

 

[ReefRusty]

It's also to note that there is no where it states it has to be done as well. All my fish are put through a standard quarantine process through the local fish store, now this is not the full period of days and are really on in a QT with copper for 2 weeks before they are put on display.

All my fish have never had Ich or velvet "touch wood" I've never put them through a QT process. They are all fed well and are very healthy, going in 11 months now.

Qt procees is not always the only option, its been seen in a recent thread where they did a fallow period x 3 and still had an outbreak. Increased Feeds and quality food as well, this worked better than the 3 lots of QT.

Me personally I trust my LFS and have not had a problem with any of my fish either with Ich or velvet.

 

[sixty_reefer]

There’s plenty of reports of fish dying during quarantine, As there is from fish suffering from bad nutrition. There’s no right way and wrong way

 

[Brymac1]

When I upgraded, I moved all coral to the new tank and moved fish to a separate QT tank since I knew that ich was in my previous system. Now I QT all fish entering my new tank.

 

[N.Sreefer]

I don't qt I experimented with it and lost more fish that way (my arbitrary experience). I feed fresh seaweed and add alot of stuff from the ocean, way I see it I am always adding parasites to my tank but the only problems Ive ever had is with fish I bought online and decided to qt. I often wonder if the meds used on fish (often prophylactically) in qt destroy the microbiota of said fish and lead to problems eating. Just speculation and opinion not stating one way works better than another.

 

[brandon429]

Thank you all for posting for sure, its a serious matter. If today’s cycling practices documented 1/10th of the losses the fish disease forum documents at eight months, 100% of cycling practices would be forced to change.

but something isn’t changing for display setups, the loss rates are astronomical


The #1 risk period we are trained to worry about fish loss (cycling phase) has the lowest loss incidence on any forum…check the new tanks forum here compared to any other for fish loss from any reason


the real loss risk comes well after cycle has completed, we must band together in unison to break the cycle


but what does in unison mean ?

to the folks who truly did find success in skipping qt, and using other means that really do help such as diet modification, they have a repeatability challenge when communicating their means to the masses, but not necessarily an at home challenge.

 

[Auquanut]

I just gotta say that there is no one true right, and no foolproof method. This has been a debate for a long time, and there's good arguments on both sides. In the end, you have to go with your gut. For anyone to say that THIS is the method that you MUST use is just arrogant and irresponsible. Everything can, and eventually will fail. If anything can go wrong, it will. And if it can't go wrong, It will anyway. (Murphy's law revised)

I'm not trying to stir the pot. I'm not advocating quarantine, TTM, or disease/pest management. Just sayin.

 

[Lyss]

One thing is that just like negative reviews, I’m sure folks are more likely to make an account and post here in the disease forum when something has gone wrong, not “hey my new nemos are awesome and I love this!” The folks with problems are over-represented.

Also, I look at it like man these fish stores are really dropping the ball. I’m sad that sick fish are being sold to unsuspecting folks, personally.

 

[brandon429]

For example, the macro pattern at work for anyone who hangs out in this forum helping new cyclers is easily this:

the majority by far of new tanks are people’s first go at reefing, and cycling, using dry rocks and one of the known quick cycle bottle bac solutions

and two clowns


and then six mixed fish a few months later, then losses.

how do we stop that loss rate for them, independent of what we may do at home as skilled painters? What’s good for the masses in order to stop this massive loss rate?


it’s to the point we don’t deserve to own saltwater fish any longer if this rate of delayed loss continues

where in someone’s reef training should they receive the requirement to prep in ways we can actually study for pattern success? Should the message be a light recommend, or how you’d all handle it like when precious canines are not cared for like the kings they are in today’s homes



No new options have been added into Jays forum. Looks like 2022 is going to be a procedural continuance of the last three years, best procedure are in place. Being refined. But not new procedures, those are one off takes for threads only.

this thread directly aims to tell new reefers that to add mixed untreated unobserved pet store fish to a non fallow display is bad, bad like purposefully hurting puppies.

Yes for sure I know reefs in my city, in person assessments, that can add fish and be absolutely fine month after month, X factors


well I don’t expect the next twenty cycles i clear to be owned by X factor contestants, so the advice they’ll get is the prudent set. Advice on procedure will be tuned to what the masses present, not the vast few.

 

[brandon429]

Aquanut

the loss rate is too high for fence riding, pick a side.


a way we know which way is best is to sample options that have entire forum sections dedicated to a practice, post #2 has just such a link


such as anything from Jay or Humblefish, clearly they’ve chosen a side.

for the wingin’ it option, we need to cancel all that based on unacceptable loss patterns. People are buying pets they have no idea how to care for and killing them at astounding rates.

this one is good too

Forum list

A diverse reefing community working together for healthy fish and all things reefing.

humble.fish

I guarantee some readers out there about to mix a bunch of lfs fish and lose half of them by summer wouldn’t do it if we taught them day #1 of the cycle to not do that, that they wouldn’t take their $1500 blue pit pup and skip all its parvo shots, care of dogs is level fifteen, care of these marine fish at a mere level 12 comparatively would make us far far far less wasteful in this hobby.



the current loss rate is bad, and a product of easy fish access by folks not trained correctly and frankly misled by peers by and large, but not ever misled by Jay or HF.

I will go on record stating if we can’t stop killing fish at this degree of daily loss collectively as peers, we shouldn’t have access to own them any longer. Collection and supply is one set of losses, and at-home losses are terrible and nothing is set to improve them unless training timing and intensity changes.

buy a pico reef, save a fish.

 

[Lyss]

For example, the macro pattern at work for anyone who hangs out in this forum helping new cyclers is easily this:

the majority by far of new tanks are people’s first go at reefing, and cycling, using dry rocks and one of the known quick cycle bottle bac solutions

and two clowns


and then six mixed fish a few months later, then losses.

how do we stop that loss rate for them, independent of what we may do at home as skilled painters? What’s good for the masses in order to stop this massive loss rate?


it’s to the point we don’t deserve to own saltwater fish any longer if this rate of delayed loss continues

where in someone’s reef training should they receive the requirement to prep in ways we can actually study for pattern success? Should the message be a light recommend, or how you’d all handle it like when precious canines are not cared for like the kings they are in today’s homes



No new options have been added into Jays forum. Looks like 2022 is going to be a procedural continuance of the last three years, best procedure are in place. Being refined. But not new procedures, those are one off takes for threads only.

this thread directly aims to tell new reefers that to add mixed untreated unobserved pet store fish to a non fallow display is bad, bad like purposefully hurting puppies.

Yes for sure I know reefs in my city, in person assessments, that can add fish and be absolutely fine month after month, X factors


well I don’t expect the next twenty cycles i clear to be owned by X factor contestants, so the advice they’ll get is the prudent set. Advice on procedure will be tuned to what the masses present, not the vast few.

I honestly don’t understand this. If you buy a puppy from a mall pet store or puppy mill what should you expect? The places we purchase fish are becoming like puppy mills, b/c somewhere in the chain the fish aren’t being cared for appropriately. I don’t put it on the happy unsuspecting new consumer who wants to do right no doubt but has been mislead b/c they’re most likely buying “puppy mill” fish.

I’ve said this multiple times but QT is a big barrier to entry in this hobby. We’re telling folks they need two tanks now, not just one. And they need to be responsible for medicating. As a first time keeper how daunting does that feel? Put yourself in another’s shoes.

 

[Auquanut]

Aquanut

the loss rate is too high for fence riding, pick a side.


a way we know which way is best is to sample options that have entire forum sections dedicated to a practice


such as anything from Jay or Humblefish, clearly they’ve chosen a side.

for the wingin’ it option, we need to cancel all that based on unacceptable loss patterns. People are buying pets they have no idea how to care for and killing them at astounding rates.

Respectfully, I don't have a side. I have a method that has served me well for the past 5+ years, but I would be hesitant to advise others that this is THE way to go. Why does there have to be sides?

 

[brandon429]

What happens if we don’t pick a side when cycling or with puppy vaccinations?


to get streamlined outcomes we have to select best procedure


we have been winging it with these fish for a good decade now, and we didn’t attain an acceptable retention rate.

 

[Auquanut]

we have been winging it with these fish for a good decade now, and we didn’t attain an acceptable retention rate.

Many have. Again, just sayin.

 

[N.Sreefer]

To be fair the people with the highest retention rate, and the most experience in this hobby are often the same people who haven't qt for the last 20+ years and have decade+ old fish. I had no idea what the acronym even meant when I signed up on this site because literally not one person I know in real life actually does it (other than the LFS which started 2 years ago). Quarantine is an old concept but how long have us hobby fish keepers been doing it?

 

[brandon429]

For readers who this post will be guilt-linked to all next year heh:

Your inclinations come from freshwater training.

Buying any decent looking freshwater fish at your pet store and bringing it home to a matched environ (planted tank vs cichlid setups etc, matched) is going to work long term 98% of the time, disease won’t usually be a matter in decent fw tanks.


the environment greatly influences freshwater fish retention rates and they don’t show up as bad as marine specimens do nowadays.


but you can’t apply this to marine fish trading any longer, let’s say roughly 2011 is when your loss rates started to climb far above the 90s era for example. Adding unprepped marine fish to a very aged, matured setup has less loss rates than adding them to brand new dry start systems but no where the degree of retention we see in well-matched freshwater stocked setups. Marine retention beyond a weak eight months average requires better preps now, or you’ll just end up buying replacement after replacement and committing the very error your guilt link hoped to prevent.

 

[brandon429]

N.Sreefer

I really agree. However, those folks didn’t improve our retention rates so immediate change is required. Reading what Paul does and then trying to replicate that with a Marco rocks setup is bad


we pick and choose from their professional builds, the least effort least cost least wait time snippets. Thats killing fish too much

***how many times do new reefers agree to listen and wait to add fish to a matured tank? Hardly ever


so we have to make changes to follow the please me immediately wave, it isn’t ceasing. Cycle completion dates are shortening, not lengthening, and no we don’t get less disease loss with four month cycles vs four day Fritz ones I’ve been watching intently for a decade these post details. What affects loss rates is found in the fish disease forum, clearly stated clearly studied clearly in review, or on Humblefishs site which is largely the same process of fallow and quarantine.


the natural ways can’t keep up with today’s Marco rock loading and you’re not going to convince the masses to stop, they’ve already been convinced Marco rocks are the eco friendly way.

 

[Lyss]

For readers who this post will be guilt-linked to all next year heh:

Your inclinations come from freshwater training.

Buying any decent looking freshwater fish at your pet store and bringing it home to a matched environ (planted tank vs cichlid setups etc, matched) is going to work long term 98% of the time, disease won’t usually be a matter in decent fw tanks.


the environment greatly influences freshwater fish retention rates and they don’t show up as bad as marine specimens do nowadays.


but you can’t apply this to marine fish trading any longer, let’s say roughly 2011 is when your loss rates started to climb far above the 90s era for example. Adding unprepped marine fish to a very aged, matured setup has less loss rates than adding them to brand new dry start systems but no where the degree of retention we see in well-matched freshwater stocked setups. Marine retention beyond a weak eight months average requires better preps now, or you’ll just end up buying replacement after replacement and committing the very error your guilt link hoped to prevent.

Sorry but this is the kind of stuff that drives ppl from the hobby. Im just saying, and I know I’ll prob keep being ignored. This comes off as really unpalatable and would make me even afraid of asking for help tbh.

 

[i_am_mclovin]

but something isn’t changing for display setups, the loss rates are astronomical

Data Source?