The Other Way to Run a Reef Tank (no Quarantine)

[atoll]

Thanks!



This is a story about what you saw. There are no records documenting, and memory is incredibly fallible. The fish may have subclinical infections. So, anecdote.



That you didn't see, could be subclinical. Again, this is a story about what you saw without documentation of any sort, and memory is fallible, so anecdote.



Again, this is a story about what you saw without documentation of any sort, and memory is fallible. The fish could be subclinical.



Again, a story that you observed, with no documentation, so anecdote. And, this falls in line exactly with the lifecycle of the parasite, and is why so many nutty things are attributed to its cure.




Sure, this one seems facty.

There is nothing wrong with anecdote. Anecdote is great, but has its pitfalls. Adding 'FACT' to stuff in an attempt to make it more meaty doesn't actually make it more meaty.
Also, we aren't interested in fact, we are interested in evidence, of which anecdote is a kind.


I hope this makes sense. I am off to answer your post about science now, that may help to further clear things up.

Who says I haven't kept records or documented things with my aquarium? Har yes you do, well you are wrong and I have posted pages of a log I kept a few years ago of the things I have done etc in a thread.a little while ago on R2R. I am not going to dig that log and other pages out again and post it here as what I would show would only be described as anecdotal again. I would rather my methods be judge by my successes (or failures) and yes my tank is beautiful which I can only put down to my methods, the hows and whys are all open to debate anecdotal or not. I have my beliefs arrived at over many years not simply blind faith and if I can't provide lab type science to back it up then I make no appologise for that. I have but my experience and theories along with my tank in support of what I do. When I say my fish live long lives free of debilitating disease that is a fact not a theory nor is it ancedotal.
Maybe it's time I shut up now as a lot is repetitive and I don't feel I can add much more than I have to Paul's thread. We are just old guys doing what we do and have more or less done over many years never suggesting others do the same just that it works for us and enough others to challange the accepted thou must QT or all will be lost.

 

[Thales]

Who says I haven't kept records or documented things with my aquarium? Har yes you do, well you are wrong and I have posted pages of a log I kept a few years ago of the things I have done etc in a thread.a little while ago on R2R. I am not going to dig that log and other pages out again and post it here as what I would show would only be described as anecdotal again.

No one said you didn't keep records.

I would rather my methods be judge by my successes (or failures) and yes my tank is beautiful which I can only put down to my methods, the hows and whys are all open to debate anecdotal or not.

Ok

I have my beliefs arrived at over many years not simply blind faith and if I can't provide lab type science to back it up then I make no appologise for that.

I am so confused. I didn't ask you to apologize for anything. I haven't at all asked for lab ty science. I didn't say anything about blind faith.

I have but my experience and theories along with my tank in support of what I do.

Yep.

When I say my fish live long lives free of debilitating disease that is a fact not a theory nor is it ancedotal.

That isn't what you said, at least in the post you asked me to respond to.

Maybe it's time I shut up now as a lot is repetitive and I don't feel I can add much more than I have to Paul's thread. We are just old guys doing what we do and have more or less done over many years never suggesting others do the same just that it works for us and enough others to challange the accepted thou must QT or all will be lost.

I am not at all sure what that has to do with me and the conversation you and I are having.

I don't understand why you are so defensive. We are just talking. I think you think I am somehow saying you are somehow bad - I am not. Sorry if that is how you are taking it, it is not at all my intention.

 

[theMeat]

 

[Mortie31]

Thanks!
We know a bunch of stuff. We know that interceptor kills red bugs - which started as an idea, and which Dustin Dortin did a bunch of work with to support. We know successful treatments for ich. We know LED's provide light that corals can use to grow. We know that cleaner shrimp do not eat ich. We know that you don't need a DSB for denitrification. These have a lot of data behind them, some even peer reviewed.

The thing that I try to get people to do when they are trying to decide what to do, 'what are we left with' is to see when anecdote is mistakenly converted to fact BEFORE they decide to try something. They may still decide to try it, and that is fine.

Yes I agree there are bits we do know, but do LEDS grow corals as well as halides and where do T5”s fit in?? do radions give the coverage they say? you don’t need a dsb for denitrification but is it better than other methods? Or has everyone been frightened away from them by anecdote!! There is so much variability that it’s hard to compare, much in this hobby. A very fair comment about interceptor and I see the new AEFW in tank treatment is getting some “thorough” testing...
but one thing I’m always aware of is how human nature gets in the way of us all being as honest with each other as we should be, therefore we end up being sheep/ or misled, especially when it comes to product/ brand loyalty, which just makes me laugh, seeing how grown men will defend or promote a product (generally anecdotally) for no benefit to them selves is something I will never understand.... yet virtually ever thread on this entire forum is full of examples of it...
Thanks for the sceptical reefer post..

 

[Frogger]

No need to be sorry at, however, which of my facts do you suggest are not facts but something I have made up or presumed? I don't have a science based background, like Paul I am from the building industry. Anecdotal you say, well in that case it must be with my 10 or 11tanks over 36years and that of a number of friends of mine so yes my methods and that of my friends have been repeated many times. Of course not in a scientific way just as we have set up and maintained our tanks for so many years and never QTd any fish. We must be doing something wrong as our fish don't get sick and most we buy that are get better. Anecdotal is a word people often use on here when they are stumped it would seem but its not anecdotal when fish die in QT or when our fish live long lives spawn and are healthy.

Don't get me wrong I am not questioning yours and Paul's success in the method that you use, I am just questioning some of the terminology that is being used. Sorry for the delay in my response. I go off to work and there are 4 pages of replies.

 

[Jay Norris]

Don't get me wrong I am not questioning yours and Paul's success in the method that you use, I am just questioning some of the terminology that is being used. Sorry for the delay in my response. I go off to work and there are 4 pages of replies.

Yea that is the trouble with going to work, as you don't have enough time to read all these post and get any work done.

 

[MnFish1]

I think it's expected that anyone will try to understand why this method works using science. If there are errors in the reasoning they should be pointed out.

These eventual errors don't affect the validity of the method. Too much of this discussion has been focused on "Why?" when it would be much more useful to know the "How?".

If there is a more clear path, I am sure lots of people will try it out, because no one is questioning the results.

After more people adopt this method and adapt it, more hints will surface to help in the search of the explanation on why it works.

Who knows, maybe it can even be put in a bottle in the future.

In the end, it's a matter of choosing a path that suits your personality.

I guess I disagree. Read this with an open mind

First most people don’t have access to buckets of seawater. Second most people don’t have access to fresh seafood (that supposedly contains parasites). Third - If you read the article - its more about things @paul doesn't do (its called 'lack of method'). So what are you following?

For example - Nutrition affects immunity. If you feed your fish saltine crackers they will become malnourished (or a poor dry food) and they will be more likely have weaker immune systems. If you're going to follow 'the method' you need to feed 'food containing pathogens'. If you live in Kansas etc - you might want a substitute (i.e. a high quality dry food), etc etc. You want to know 'why is dumping seawater in the tank important' - because in Kansas - I they cant get fresh seawater.

If the logic used to defend the method (fish swallow parasites with their food - and become immune by that - so you need to feed pathogens) is completely false - it makes one question whether feeding food with pathogens makes any difference at all. Do you understand the point? There is no question as to whether Paul and Atolls tanks are 'successful'.

 

[MnFish1]

Im really confused frankly how this has been turned into a debate about anyone's (@PaulB @atoll, etc) method. Part of it is people jumping in to 'defend' Paul - and his method - when no one has ever said his method was wrong, bad, stupid or anything like that - same for Atoll. Maybe its time for people to read the posts and whats being said - not reacting to what they think is being said.

I have no problems with Pauls, Atolls Humblefish or any other 'Method'. We're discussing this specific article. Nothing more nothing less. Again - people gloss over the issues with the article to defend the person. Forget Paul's method for a second - go back to the article - the last paragraph/sentence. That alone should have almost everyone here questioning some of the other things in 'the method'. I did not mention parameters because IMO they are not that important for fish health. Corals, yes, but not fish. My nitrates were 160 for years and I never had a fish die and they continued to spawn. - There are many reasons that Paul could have had nitrates >160 for years without problems - its not part of this thread. But for those of you who are going to 'follow the method and not question the logic behind it'. Remember you can toss your measuring tools away - that will save you a lot of money. (PS - Paul in the past has said nitrates didn't affect the type of coral he grew either - but acknowledges that nitrate could affect some 'picky' acorpora)

 

[Ardeus]

I guess I disagree. Read this with an open mind

First most people don’t have access to buckets of seawater. Second most people don’t have access to fresh seafood (that supposedly contains parasites). Third - If you read the article - its more about things @paul doesn't do (its called 'lack of method'). So what are you following?

For example - Nutrition affects immunity. If you feed your fish saltine crackers they will become malnourished (or a poor dry food) and they will be more likely have weaker immune systems. If you're going to follow 'the method' you need to feed 'food containing pathogens'. If you live in Kansas etc - you might want a substitute (i.e. a high quality dry food), etc etc. You want to know 'why is dumping seawater in the tank important' - because in Kansas - I they cant get fresh seawater.

If the logic used to defend the method (fish swallow parasites with their food - and become immune by that - so you need to feed pathogens) is completely false - it makes one question whether feeding food with pathogens makes any difference at all. Do you understand the point? There is no question as to whether Paul and Atolls tanks are 'successful'.

That's the reason I think that a "How to" guide would be great to encourage more people to try to follow Paul's and Attol's methods.

I am sure lots of people would agree with you and eliminate some parts of the method. If they still got good long term results, great, the method becomes simpler. If not, then maybe those parts couldn't be eliminated.

 

[Jay Norris]

Im really confused frankly how this has been turned into a debate about anyone's (@PaulB @atoll, etc) method. Part of it is people jumping in to 'defend' Paul - and his method - when no one has ever said his method was wrong, bad, stupid or anything like that - same for Atoll. Maybe its time for people to read the posts and whats being said - not reacting to what they think is being said.

I have no problems with Pauls, Atolls Humblefish or any other 'Method'. We're discussing this specific article. Nothing more nothing less. Again - people gloss over the issues with the article to defend the person. Forget Paul's method for a second - go back to the article - the last paragraph/sentence. That alone should have almost everyone here questioning some of the other things in 'the method'. I did not mention parameters because IMO they are not that important for fish health. Corals, yes, but not fish. My nitrates were 160 for years and I never had a fish die and they continued to spawn. - There are many reasons that Paul could have had nitrates >160 for years without problems - its not part of this thread. But for those of you who are going to 'follow the method and not question the logic behind it'. Remember you can toss your measuring tools away - that will save you a lot of money. (PS - Paul in the past has said nitrates didn't affect the type of coral he grew either - but acknowledges that it could affect some 'picky' acorpora)

Hi again, we can run our systems like mine or people who chose not to quarantine without having our water parameters out of whack, as I don't follow Paul's method on this subject of high Nitrates, but we all must do what we feel is right for our systems, and not depend on others for every bit of advice. I still test my water every so often, and I mainly depend on my sight to tell me when something is wrong, but that is for another discussion at a later time.

 

[MnFish1]

That's the reason I think that a "How to" guide would be great to encourage more people to try to follow Paul's and Attol's methods.

I am sure lots of people would agree with you and eliminate some parts of the method. If they still got good long term results, great, the method becomes simpler. If not, then maybe those parts couldn't be eliminated.

Again - I'm not advocating for any change in the method or eliminating anything. What I said was - in order to find substitutions for some of the things in the 'method' for people who do not live on the coasts, its important to know the rationale behind 'the method'. Thats why the rationale is not just 'worthless'- its extremely important if these methods are going to be practiced by anyone else that doesnt live in Florida or Polynesia.

 

[hotashes]

This is leading towards what @brandon429 states long ago;

Just doting on the past is not going to achieve anything for other reefers.

This thread will become repetitive as many do.

We need to find willing reefers new and old to set up a tank so that the likes of @Paul B & @atoll can literally help create the next best reefer using influence. Now that would bring life to all this chat.

I take my hat off to all the challenges being put their way, of which some are interesting. However I also envy their tanks which going by their own word have been running for many years. So I’m on the fence here and would like to see a new reef created in a new set up and watch it mature. Let’s face it we’re all here for the long run, or are we awaiting volume 2 of Paul’s book

A.

 

[MnFish1]

Hi again, we can run our systems like mine or people who chose not to quarantine without having our water parameters out of whack, as I don't follow Paul's method on this subject of high Nitrates, but we all must do what we feel is right for our systems, and not depend on others for every bit of advice. I still test my water every so often, and I mainly depend on my sight to tell me when something is wrong, but that is for another discussion at a later time.

But the reason Pauls numbers were out of whack was because of the method - the type and amount of food he was feeding, and the added bioload from the sea.

So - perhaps you're not following his method after all. One thing to remember - I dont quarantine. I dont feel live foods, I dont dump seawater in my tank. Why is CI not rampant in my tank? One answer - I'm lucky. Another answer - feeding live foods as compared to high quality dry food makes no difference. I dont have local seawater to dump in my tank - but its successful, why? One answer - I'm lucky, another answer - the thing about adding mud, dirt, seawater from one specific place is not significant if an aquarist is adding fish, coral, invertebrates from places that may be thousands of miles apart. I don't know - but its certainly interesting to me to try to figure out why. Frankly biodiversity sounds really new and cool. So saying that you add biodiversity to your tank also sounds new and cool. The fact is - you will never be able to create the biodiversity present in all of the varying areas from which our fish/coral/inverts come. You will never be able to expose the fish in your tank to all of the bacteria and parasites in the world (and keep them there to rexpose every 6months) - so there has to be some other answer. But - it does sound cool.

 

[Mortie31]

Thinking back from what a lot of you have said on here, and my own experience people that don’t quarantine and have fish live for years, there appears to be a few commonalities
1) Tanks not overstacked with fish, and a more careful/ restrained choice of fish
2) Apperently well fed either live or quality dried/ frozen
3) “more natural looking tanks” lots of live rock, sand, inverts, hiding places
Obviously this is way oversimplified, but I for one have “guessed that a scared/stressed fish is an unhappy fish and that there immune system is very likely to be affected by the fight or flight response. Much as ours is.. I’ve always been very sceptical about bare bottom bare bones style tanks, with restricted caves and escape zones and would be interested if people with this style of tank are more prone to fish illness... maybe fish in couples also like us live longer, lol... obviously that’s all anecdotal and my musings...

 

[MnFish1]

Thinking back from what a lot of you have said on here, and my own experience people that don’t quarantine and have fish live for years, there appears to be a few commonalities
1) Tanks not overstacked with fish, and a more careful/ restrained choice of fish
2) Apperently well fed either live or quality dried/ frozen
3) “more natural looking tanks” lots of live rock, sand, inverts, hiding places
Obviously this is way oversimplified, but I for one have “guessed that a scared/stressed fish is an unhappy fish and that there immune system is very likely to be affected by the fight or flight response. Much as ours is.. I’ve always been very sceptical about bare bottom bare bones style tanks, with restricted caves and escape zones and would be interested if people with this style of tank are more prone to fish illness... maybe fish in couples also like us live longer, lol... obviously that’s all anecdotal and my musings...

LOL actually - I think you hit the nail on the head. Here is an example. I had a malfunction (of a popular aquarium controller) which caused a power outage in my tank for more than 24 hours. Funny thing is you can go into almost any of the tank emergency forums and someone has a problem and xyz changed and that caused everything to die. In my tank - I lost a couple small coral and 2 fish (unfortunately one of them a really expensive one lol) but 95% survived with no problem. If that happened in a newer tank it would probably be a total wipe out. The longer that a tank is up and running - (IMHO) the more resistant it becomes to a lot of things - disease, everything.

MY GUESS - Is that if one tried to set up a tank and then started tossing in non-quarantined fish - with active CI - it may work for some of them - but in general they will start with 100 fish and end up with 10 immune fish. Or the bioload from the feeding, etc would cause an ammonia problem quickly, etc. If you had a tank set up for 4 years and wanted to try this - it might end more positively.

This is also why 'the reason' for why people do things in this hobby is important. There is also a reason that people have developed QT systems it wasnt to make life harder.

 

[Thales]

Thinking back from what a lot of you have said on here, and my own experience people that don’t quarantine and have fish live for years, there appears to be a few commonalities
1) Tanks not overstacked with fish, and a more careful/ restrained choice of fish
2) Apperently well fed either live or quality dried/ frozen
3) “more natural looking tanks” lots of live rock, sand, inverts, hiding places

If that is what this thread boils down to, I am confused as those are amongst the almost universal recommendations regarding keeping saltwater tanks.

Obviously this is way oversimplified, but I for one have “guessed that a scared/stressed fish is an unhappy fish and that there immune system is very likely to be affected by the fight or flight response. Much as ours is.. I’ve always been very sceptical about bare bottom bare bones style tanks, with restricted caves and escape zones and would be interested if people with this style of tank are more prone to fish illness... maybe fish in couples also like us live longer, lol... obviously that’s all anecdotal and my musings...

You can do a sterile qt and have it be very successful, however, it is a bunch of work because you have to keep on top of water quality, and most people don't. Then you get a bunch of cascade effects and it becomes not possible to determine any of the actual causes. I ran a qt room at a pa for 4 years, and continued to work with that room for an addition 6 years (and counting) and have seen a lot of different qt set ups. Personally, I like to have a bunch of cycled live rock on hand to fill a qt tank when needed. I also don't mind pulling the rock from the sump of the system the fish are going into because if that system has an illness, the fish is going to get exposed to it later anyway.

 

[MnFish1]

If that is what this thread boils down to, I am confused as those are amongst the almost universal recommendations regarding keeping saltwater tanks. You can do a sterile qt and have it be very successful, however, it is a bunch of work because you have to keep on top of water quality, and most people don't. Then you get a bunch of cascade effects and it becomes not possible to determine any of the actual causes. I ran a qt room at a pa for 4 years, and continued to work with that room for an addition 6 years (and counting) and have seen a lot of different qt set ups. Personally, I like to have a bunch of cycled live rock on hand to fill a qt tank when needed. I also don't mind pulling the rock from the sump of the system the fish are going into because if that system has an illness, the fish is going to get exposed to it later anyway.

@Thales Curious - Do you believe its best to QT with medication - or is QT in your mind (and at the public aquarium) merely separating the fish from the main population for xxxx time until you can determine (or at least improve the likelihood) that they will not spread disease to the main population? And in either case - what is the xxxx time. I am not sure how Paul defines QT (except the 72 day thing) - I was curious about your opinion - whats done in the real world.

 

[Mortie31]

This is leading towards what @brandon429 states long ago;

Just doting on the past is not going to achieve anything for other reefers.

This thread will become repetitive as many do.

We need to find willing reefers new and old to set up a tank so that the likes of @Paul B & @atoll can literally help create the next best reefer using influence. Now that would bring life to all this chat.

I take my hat off to all the challenges being put their way, of which some are interesting. However I also envy their tanks which going by their own word have been running for many years. So I’m on the fence here and would like to see a new reef created in a new set up and watch it mature. Let’s face it we’re all here for the long run, or are we awaiting volume 2 of Paul’s book

A.

I’m keeping records of how things develop in my tank, as reported in my tank thread, I had a complete fish wipeout back in October last year, I had had some of these fish for 14 years in 3 different tanks, the last one for 6.5 years, I’d never quarantined anything in all of this time, I added a gold flame angel from a private tank, id observed it on several occasions and new the reefer and his tank, this said fish had been in his tank for over a year and looked completely healthy as did all his other fish... 2 weeks after putting it in my tank all fish dead to what appeared to be velvet, the only survivers a clown fish and cleaner wrasse.. now I have no reason as to why this happened as neither of us had ever seen velvet in our tanks... I had my suspicions, I debated for over a month as to buy this fish or not as I felt my tank was at its fish capacity, all fish had established sleeping holes etc and a very defined heirachy... I knew deep down I was pushing it, but the gold flake was my No1 dream fish and I trusted 100% where I was getting it from.... I still don’t know where this disease came from or why the cascade of events happened... the reason I’m posting this on here now is, this is @Paul B thread, but I feel there are things we don’t understand and we can’t explain everything... unfortunately... I’m currently in the process of restocking and I’m not quarantining again, one thing I won’t do again is overstock and push things and follow my feelings and experiences, as a few of you have said observation and knowing your tank is crucial, spotting the changes, gaining a feel, I ignored my gut feeling and my fish paid a very expensive price..

 

[Mortie31]

If that is what this thread boils down to, I am confused as those are amongst the almost universal recommendations regarding keeping saltwater tanks.



You can do a sterile qt and have it be very successful, however, it is a bunch of work because you have to keep on top of water quality, and most people don't. Then you get a bunch of cascade effects and it becomes not possible to determine any of the actual causes. I ran a qt room at a pa for 4 years, and continued to work with that room for an addition 6 years (and counting) and have seen a lot of different qt set ups. Personally, I like to have a bunch of cycled live rock on hand to fill a qt tank when needed. I also don't mind pulling the rock from the sump of the system the fish are going into because if that system has an illness, the fish is going to get exposed to it later anyway.

But that’s anecdotal... sorry being a git... I’m sure like you and most reading this thread we follow an aweful lot of threads and in my observations the more sterile tanks seem to have more fish health issues... maybe because this style is more popular now or that people are just in to much of a rush stocking immature tanks, i don’t know, but I think instant bacteria, low rock levels and poor fish selection are a huge contributor...

 

[hotashes]

Could you imagine trying to explain to the majority of how many microscopic virus’ are in a single drop of saltwater taken from the ocean. Let alone whatever else is in a sample.

For this reason I think the OP had a few sitting ducks who’ve bitten his take on biodiversity and parasite contamination from adding all the...... Mud, dirt, seawater, parasite, and the list goes on. to his tank.
Clearly the margin from knowledge to experience is too wide and will possible easily confuse quite a few by making them believe it’s just his magic touch or luck.

A.