The Other Way to Run a Reef Tank (no Quarantine)

[theMeat]

Disagree. You have no way to know what your fish died from. And no one really knows what old age is for a fish let alone many different species.

But that said. Let’s say a person sets up a tank. With 10 fish. That are tank raised. They are never exposed to CI or velvet but they are exposed to bacteria etc. ie their water and food is not sterile. What prevents that tank owner from being successful and raising fish to an old age? I mean were and smallpox and measles. trying to eliminate malaria. There is no reason that a fish raised in a tank without velvet won’t live as long as one exposed to it.

Think you’re missing a whole big part, maybe the whole part of this thread. When you strain yourself with work/weights you get stronger. A kindergarten teacher hardly gets a cold, etc. A qt eliminates harmful stuff but what if we/they need that harmful stuff? We/they (fish) have an immune system for a reason. Who’s to say if you’re body doesn’t use it’s immune system that it doesn’t weaken you as a whole, not just your immune system.

 

[MnFish1]

Scott, thank you for that post, I just saw it. Now that Mn left I can answer that as best I can.



I agree with this statement and is what I would probably do. But for "this" article what I mean by quarantining is keeping a fish separate from other fish for 76 days. (I know I said 72 before but I was wrong as I don't do it so I am not an expert on it).
During that 76 days that fish is kept in a mostly bare tank so that if it has to be medicated, or removed, it can with out too much difficulty.
The fish also can not be fed live foods for fear that you may introduce a pathogen (and we know what they are so I won't go over it)

What you are proposing is not quarantine. It is just separation. At least that is what I think you mean.

Perhaps you should change the title of your article then. So there wouldn't be pages of discussion.

Think you’re missing a whole big part, maybe the whole part of this thread. When you strain yourself with work/weights you get stronger. A kindergarten teacher hardly gets a cold, etc. a qt eliminates harmful stuff but what if we/they need that harmful stuff? We/they (fish) have an immune system for a reason. Who’s to say if you’re body doesn’t use it’s immune system that it doesn’t weaken you as a whole, not just your immune system.

Science. There is no basis to much of the 'things' quoted in the article. Thats my only point - I'm not about debating the rest - I've already posted where I disagree - if you have a different viewpoint - or facts - show where I'm wrong. LOl - I'm not into playing personality because I like someones jokes about Miley Cyrus over fact. Are you?

 

[theMeat]

science

“Science’ is not closed minded, although... how many times did science claim to have it figured out until they discovered something new only find out they had it all wrong. Then once again claimed they had it all figured out.

 

[MnFish1]

Think you’re missing a whole big part, maybe the whole part of this thread. When you strain yourself with work/weights you get stronger. A kindergarten teacher hardly gets a cold, etc. A qt eliminates harmful stuff but what if we/they need that harmful stuff? We/they (fish) have an immune system for a reason. Who’s to say if you’re body doesn’t use it’s immune system that it doesn’t weaken you as a whole, not just your immune system.

Oh - and btw my daughter is a 3rd grade teacher - and she gets sick ALL the time. I'm an immunologist - so I have a little knowledge about these things. So - I guess I'm to say that the immune system doesn't work that way. Apologetically - because I know you want to believe that it does. again - fish in a tank exposed o everything but CI or velvet are going to have plenty of a workout of their immune systems. Its no like they are in sterile water...

 

[Humblefish]

@MnFish1 It's very important that all sides of an argument are presented. I don't want anyone to ever feel like quarantining is being shoved down their throat and they have no other option. I want them to choose to QT because they feel it is the right thing to do for the animals under their care.

@Paul B is relating experiences that he feels will work best. I personally believe these methods work for him, but I also believe Paul's methods are not easily repeatable. Paul has been keeping aquariums since Abraham Lincoln, and if my math is right that's over 150 years worth of experience.

But please, let's keep this discussion civil and also keep our emotions in check.

 

[MnFish1]

“Science’ is not closed minded, although... how many times did science claim to have it figured out until they discovered something new only find out they had it all wrong. Then once again claimed they had it all figured out.

SORRY - I clicked something - that was not the whole post . Right - but the evidence that proved the former science 'incorrect' was based on the 'scientific method' not one tank.

 

[MnFish1]

@MnFish1 It's very important that all sides of an argument are presented. I don't want anyone to ever feel like quarantining is being shoved down their throat and they have no other option. I want them to choose to QT because they feel it is the right thing to do for the animals under their care.

@Paul B is relating experiences that he feels will work best. I personally believe these methods work for him, but I also believe Paul's methods are not easily repeatable. Paul has been keeping aquariums since Abraham Lincoln, and if my math is right that's over 150 years worth of experience.

But please, let's keep this discussion civil and also keep our emotions in check.

Hey - totally agree. Do you think feeding CI to fish makes them immune? Do you think that the rest of the 'facts' presented in his article are 'reality'? Do you feel that the average aquarist should have nitrates >160? I mean - if not why did you request this article ? This is not meant to be insulting - but Its like someone on a vaccine site asking someone who is an anivaxxer to post an article - its inviting controversy. Im sorry if you do this is not the site for me. Its not about qt vs something else. Its about whether the reasons behind the method as described in the article are sound or not. I dont QT - so I have no axe to grind on that front.

PS if we based our understanding of human medicine based on Abraham Lincolns day - we wouldn't have anesthesia - and to get your appendix out would be a 70 % mortality or more.

 

[MnFish1]

“Science’ is not closed minded, although... how many times did science claim to have it figured out until they discovered something new only find out they had it all wrong. Then once again claimed they had it all figured out.

LOL _ already replied to this. But in almost every case - science progressing is better than non-science. (My post has been edited since I posted 'science' alone)

 

[soflmuddin]

Oh - and btw my daughter is a 3rd grade teacher - and she gets sick ALL the time. I'm an immunologist - so I have a little knowledge about these things. So - I guess I'm to say that the immune system doesn't work that way. Apologetically - because I know you want to believe that it does. again - fish in a tank exposed o everything but CI or velvet are going to have plenty of a workout of their immune systems. Its no like they are in sterile water...

You can claim all the scientific fact you want to but at the end of the day it is still just human testimony.

 

[MnFish1]

You can claim all the scientific fact you want to but at the end of the day it is still just human testimony.

based on what? This isnt meant to be snarky - so if I said - I have had tanks for 30 + years (I have) and I said - I add black pepper every Friday - and that's my reason for success - would that mean anything? no of course not.

 

[soflmuddin]

based on what?

It's not your research you keep quoting.

 

[EmdeReef]

EmdeReef. Thank you for those links. Some of them are to small for me to read but they seem to be a fresh water leech and most of it is about aquacultured fish. I know the first link is anyway. For the purpose of this thread we are talking about Ich and velvet. We normally don't get fresh water leeches and worms infecting our reefs. In my 50 years of diving I have never seen a fish with a case of ich or velvet. I do see occasionally a large parasite on a fish, that is rather common.

The second link is about something killing sharks and Rays in San Francisco bay by infecting their brains.

The third one is about a freshwater leech that infects salmon when they enter freshwater to spawn. It also says the fish that recover become immune.

The fourth link is about leeches on flounders.



The link states
Quote:
These fish were sourced from wild stocks through commercial ornamental wholesalers. Prior to introduction into established recirculating systems, all fish were subjected to a 30‐d quarantine period. End Quote.

If you read this thread (I wouldn't have) you would have seen that I mentioned that a 30 day quarantine period is fine and will not effect a fishes immunity.

This is like what MnFish1 does all the time. He miss quotes me. He mentioned that I said "Parameters are not important".
But if he quoted the entire sentence he would have seen where I said " Parameters are not "That" important when it comes to fish but very important with corals and I stand by that. Fish don't care that much about calcium, magnesium, iodine, Po4 etc. But it is tiring to go back to re read all this stuff as I really don't have anything to prove.





Saf1, of course I think the same way with my children and grand Children. I think I am successful with them. They are happy which makes me happy and that is the most important thing. But we have to have some standard when we are talking about pets, turtles or fish. They don't look anyone in the eye or shake hands. We are taking these creatures out of the sea by the millions just to satisfy our selfish wants so we should try to keep them at least as long as they will live in the sea. Lifespan is one test. Spawning is another. If we keep a tang for a few years we may consider our self successful. But if he dies 10 years before his natural lifespan, that fish may disagree with you.

The purpose of this thread which is way off course was to suggest a different way to keep a tank, by not quarantining. I never said, "Do not quarantine"
If you want to go that route, do it. It's fine. This Is just another way. I am sorry there is so many pages of nonsense that has nothing to do with the original thread.

I don't think I misquoted your direct quote above. I don't see where you limit your comments to ich and velvet (which likely have relatively low acute mortality in the wild) when discussing your immune tank/fish.

Just to set the record straight:

1st article compares parasites found on wild caught and farmed cod in a fjord in Norway
2nd - Wild and farmed fish in the Red Sea, in and near Eilat which is in the Gulf of Aqaba (Red Sea.
3rd - is the SF Bay
4th - Trypanoplasma survives in both environments
5th - study of mortalities in the western Atlantic Ocean...also flounders are marine fishes, leech was a vector used in a lab. Not that it matters. I could probably give a list of at least a 100 other articles of marine parasites causing wild fish mortality - you could also search it yourself via google scholar or another article database.

You misquoted the last article which describes the first successful attempt at breeding blue tangs by the University of Florida. If you read their methods, which I quoted above, you will see that the fish were treated prophylactically for 30 days with several different medications. Also, look at the equipment used, i.e. plastic tubs. So after residing in barren tubs through 30 days of "immunity erasing drugs" those fish spawned and produced viable offspring which by your metrics is the apex of health. Oh they were also fed pellets in part...

Lastly, I generally like your posts and am happy with whichever way you run your tank, but I don't think what you described is a method of running a tank as it will likely fail for many if not most other reefers. To your credit you do admit something along those lines. I've been in this hobby for a while, not as long as you, and after quarantining dozens if not hundreds of fish for myself, friends and a company I have developed my own quarantine protocol which differs greatly from what I would recommend people on here as it would likely fail more often than what @HotRocks and @Humblefish recommend. I also used to not quarantine but now see that as unethical (personal opinion I won't change nor wish to impose on anyone).

While I don't want to start a debate on this, I would recommend to anyone who thinks adding dirt etc.works to research closed ecological systems and biodiversity patterns.

 

[MnFish1]

It's not your research you keep quoting.

Sorry dont understand - its common sense. You dont go to the doctor every fall to be 'fed' a flu vaccine you get an injection. when you 'step on the proverbial nail' you dont get an oral tetanus vaccine - you get a shot. however, if you want a polio vaccine (since that is a virus spread that can be spread orally) you can get an oral one. This has been common knowledge for decades.

If people who do fish-farming thought it was possible to feed CI (or CI products) In the feed to billions of dollars of farmed fish yearly - do you not think they would do that??? instead research focuses on impractical intraperitoneal injections of vaccine and still havent come up with a vaccine for CI.

 

[Heavymman]

I love this write up but I’m having a hard time grasping it. For instance, I have never got a flu shot in my life because I never had the flu before. I got the flu a month ago for the first time in my life.

Immunity is like a biological memory until some new strand comes along and it does’t have the means to fight it. I can see how @Paul B way of doing things work but I would be concerned with the diversity of bad things.

I also think QT is not a bad thing, it’s temporarily ridding the fish of any parasites and or bacteria. Although the fish’s immunity might be affected during treatment, it is not tainted after medication.

Life will always prevail and it will always be a struggle between what we conceive bad and good. IE in Hospitals, there are strains of bacteria that are resistant to Purel.

Very interesting topic but I will stick with @HotRocks and @Humblefish QT methods and treatment just to be safe.

 

[Thales]

Are there really two sides here? What are they?

“Science’ is not closed minded, although... how many times did science claim to have it figured out until they discovered something new only find out they had it all wrong. Then once again claimed they had it all figured out.

Implicit in any scientific claim, no matter how boldly stated, is the idea that it might be wrong. To not understand that is an unfortunately common misunderstanding.
The reason we have anything that works is because of the scientific method - people think they have something figured out and move forward to find out what they have right and what they have wrong.
I

 

[theMeat]

Perhaps you should change the title of your article then. So there wouldn't be pages of discussion.

Science. There is no basis to much of the 'things' quoted in the article. Thats my only point - I'm not about debating the rest - I've already posted where I disagree - if you have a different viewpoint - or facts - show where I'm wrong. LOl - I'm not into playing personality because I like someones jokes about Miley Cyrus over fact. Are you?

Umm, yes. And his personality just makes him more interesting. And he does in fact have a long lived successful tank. Abraham Lincoln, appendix, what exactly are you talking about. It’s not just one tank, and Paul ,atoll, I and some others are simply sharing our experience, not being “disingenuous” . Immunologist? From your posts find that hard to believe. Or wonder of what you’v been taught. From where i’m sitting it appears you have much to learn on that front as well. Not saying I know more than you on either front, nor do I care to discuss, at least until you get your blood sugar under control with a ham sandwich. If I ever need advice on how to treat with meds, Humblefish and some others would definitely be on my go to list.

 

[MnFish1]

Are there really two sides here? What are they?

Implicit in any scientific claim, no matter how boldly stated, is the idea that it might be wrong. To not understand that is an unfortunately common misunderstanding.
The reason we have anything that works is because of the scientific method - people think they have something figured out and move forward to find out what they have right and what they have wrong.
I

The key point here is 'scientific method'...... In my post that said science - I should have said 'scientific method'. It would have been clearer. Apologies.

 

[soflmuddin]

Sorry dont understand - its common sense. You dont go to the doctor every fall to be 'fed' a flu vaccine you get an injection. when you 'step on the proverbial nail' you dont get an oral tetanus vaccine - you get a shot. however, if you want a polio vaccine (since that is a virus spread that can be spread orally) you can get an oral one. This has been common knowledge for decades.

If people who do fish-farming thought it was possible to feed CI (or CI products) In the feed to billions of dollars of farmed fish yearly - do you not think they would do that??? instead research focuses on impractical intraperitoneal injections of vaccine and still havent come up with a vaccine for CI.

I worked at 3 ornamental fish farms, Area water gardens, Southwest Florida tropical, Old World Exotics, all of them only treated sick fish to prevent loss. Absolutely no preemptive treatment as a quarantine method.

 

[Thales]

You can claim all the scientific fact you want to but at the end of the day it is still just human testimony.

That is a bit of a sneaky argument. On the one had sure, but really, robust scientific information has gone through all kinds of testing before it is presented.

 

[MnFish1]

Umm, yes. And his personality just makes him more interesting. And he does in fact have a long lived successful tank. Abraham Lincoln, appendix, what exactly are you talking about. It’s not just one tank, and Paul ,atoll, I and some others are try to share experience, not be “disingenuous” . Immunologist? From your posts find that hard to believe. Or wonder of what you’v been taught. From where i’m sitting it appears you have much to learn on that front as well. Not saying I know more than you on either front, nor do I care to discuss, at least until you get your blood sugar under control with a ham sandwich. If I ever need advice on how to treat with meds, Humblefish and someone would definitely be on my go to list.

Not clear where you're going here - but it doesn't matter. There are numerous factual errors (based on Current knowledge) in the article being discussed- I have mentioned them. I will repeat myself one more time. Its not a debate about what you are doing vs what xxxxxxx is doing. Its about the article - which defends 'your' (as you say above) method - with factually incorrect information.

I mentioned Lincoln because @Humblefish said Paul had been keeping tanks since the time of Lincoln - and I was implying that science and medical knowledge had progressed quite a bit since that period. I'm sorry I didnt clarify it more obviously.

Whether you know more than me on either front isn't the issue. The issue is what is true - what is not true (as of our current knowledge). And I kind of resent your blood sugar comment - because a glass of juice would be much more effective than a ham sandwich