The Other Way to Run a Reef Tank (no Quarantine)

[DrewBrees713]

That's the whole point mine, Paul's and others do have a proven track record with not QTing. As we have posted many times on here and elsewhere, we have healthy thriving fish that show no signs of any diseases.

Not trying to get into an argument but woukd like to know if either one of you kept an Achilles tang? The mother of of all ich magnet and usually the first to shows symptoms. Just curious.

 

[MnFish1]

I shared a story about ich entering my system on my build thread you can find at https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/north-americas-highest-reef-tank.358511/page-2#post-5278312. I had it enter my system last March and I did lose fish, ironically it was the fish that I moved to quarantine. So, granted it's been slightly less than a year since that happened and I have only been running without quarantining for 10 months; however, I would say that it is working. I do still put any new fish I get in an observation tank. My reason for this is because more than likely they were fed sterile food up to this point, feeding them the dirty worms at least gives them something along with what should be some possible exposure of Ich because I do use my tank water in the observation tank. So I start them on the worms immediately and as soon as they eat regularly I put them in my DT. I did that a few times between last April and December of 2018 when I purchased my last fish. I haven't lost a single fish in my DT with the Ich since taking this approach. I have lost fish in the observation tank simply because they were what I consider a "failure-to-thrive", they all died within the first 48 hours which in theory isn't enough time for ich to take its toll.

It’s a fine theory but CI isn’t contained in worms that I know of and feeding fish CI does not promote immunity to CI Feeding good foods does promote immunity to everything

 

[Paul B]

Ps you didn’t answer my question if you used tank raised fish and never exposed them to let’s say velvet and ci but fed and housed them well what would cause them not to die of old age? Same analogy why is the WHO trying to eliminate many parasites and diseases completely. It won’t harm people. No one recommends feeding malaria to people to make them immune.

Do people who live in a bubble because they have no immune system die of old age? I don't think so because those fish are not healthy and neither is a fish IMO whose immunity is compromised.
Immunity is a big part of a fish and a fish with no immunity is not a complete fish. So I will ask again. How many quarantined fish on here died of old age? I am not sure what they will die of, but I personally have not seen any. Have you?

You’re not that old yet @Paul B ha ha.

I am 70, that makes me a Geezer.

I had 14 yr old Naso and purple tang,

In my opinion, that is fantastic.

Why is a fish dying from a parasite automatically declared a failure? Surely fish die in the wild from parasites at least some of the time. Would you call mother nature a failure? If a fish lives for 30 years, then gets a parasite and dies for some unknown reason, would you call that a failure? I wouldn't.

Yes, I would. If your fish died of a parasite, that is because you let him die from that parasite. Fish should never die from a parasite and I am pretty sure they don't in the sea. Fish should be immune from parasites, but if they were quarantined, they will not be. Healthy fish in a natural non quarantined tank are immune to parasites just as they are in the sea. That is the entire basis of this thread. How to keep fish in a non quarantined tank without them "ever" dying from a parasite or anything else except old age.

"But" if a fish such as a tang dies of a parasite after 30 years, I would call that a success because that fish probably died of old age. As a fish gets near the end of it's life span, it's immune system doesn't work very well just like any organism when it is near death. It will succumb to a parasite, bacteria or virus. They after all have to die from something and we can call it anything we want but it is old age. My Mother died a few years ago. The death certificate said Heart Failure. She was 99 so she really died of old age no matter what they call it.

He claims unless fish die of old age an aquarist is not successful.

Not exactly .. He was not successful with "That" fish. He may be successful with the rest of his fish.
If you think you are successful if your fish die after 4 or 5 years you have a very low bar.

Until all of Pauls fish actually DO die of old age then he can't declare himself successful using this logic. There's no way to know what might happen to the fish tomorrow or next week or next year.

Many people forget, I have had my tank for 47 years which is much longer than most of our fish normally live so I have lost hundreds of fish. The ones that jumped out, starved, or were eaten by something else were not a success and I failed with those fish. I fail with corals all the time because corals live forever. Yes,I said forever. But if a fish dies from a disease or parasite, it was not the fishes fault,it was your fault. Even in a power failure, if you did not make provisions for a power failure it was your fault, up t a point. I have a generator but if the power is out for a long time, I will not be able to get gas so maybe the fish will freeze. But at least I tried. So far, my fish lived through many blackouts, storms, hurricanes etc. I have lost fish and corals many times and it was my fault. I went to Germany and left a fish sitter in charge that had no idea how to take care of fish. The water level dropped about 7" and I lost most of my corals. I posted that in my tank thread about 7 years ago. I also killed many fish with Clorox by accident, but it was still my fault so I failed. We fail all the time and it is part of life.
But my fish all die of old age or jumping out or starving because I stupidly got a fish I couldn't properly feed. They never die of parasites or anything else. Never.

I lost a dragon faced pipefish last week. He couldn't find enough to eat and I knew he wouldn't. My friend gave me two of them and I didn't realize they were so large. I still have the other one but I doubt he will die of old age, so I will fail with those fish. My fireclown is 27 years old so if he dies now, I will consider that a success as that is close to what I feel a clownfish should live.

Your missing the basis of this thread which is keeping fish healthy and letting them die of old age.

 

[Paul B]

Not trying to get into an argument but woukd like to know if either one of you kept an Achilles tang? The mother of of all ich magnet and usually the first to shows symptoms. Just curious.

In the years I have been at this I have probably had every kind of tang there is. I hate tangs but I don't remember them dying of parasites unless it was 40 years ago when my fish all were dying of something because I was stupid and didn't realize anything about immunity. All I knew was copper.

 

[MnFish1]

I think these fish would of still been alive if I hadn’t made a misjudgement, yes they were oldish but very healthy.. I keep Japanese koi as well and in Japan they have them recorded at over 100 years old, so do we actually know how old can fish live to?

No we don’t. Imho

 

[mav1ms]

It’s a fine theory but CI isn’t contained in worms that I know of and feeding fish does not promote immunity. Feeding good foods does promote immunity to everything

I agree with you, it's not the CI in the worms, but rather the theory that the dirty worms and other whole foods help to build the immune system up.

 

[MnFish1]

Do people who live in a bubble because they have no immune system die of old age? I don't think so because those fish are not healthy and neither is a fish IMO whose immunity is compromised.
Immunity is a big part of a fish and a fish with no immunity is not a complete fish. So I will ask again. How many quarantined fish on here died of old age? I am not sure what they will die of, but I personally have not seen any. Have you?



I am 70, that makes me a Geezer.



In my opinion, that is fantastic.



Yes, I would. If your fish died of a parasite, that is because you let him die from that parasite. Fish should never die from a parasite and I am pretty sure they don't in the sea. Fish should be immune from parasites, but if they were quarantined, they will not be. Healthy fish in a natural non quarantined tank are immune to parasites just as they are in the sea. That is the entire basis of this thread. How to keep fish in a non quarantined tank without them "ever" dying from a parasite or anything else except old age.

"But" if a fish such as a tang dies of a parasite after 30 years, I would call that a success because that fish probably died of old age. As a fish gets near the end of it's life span, it's immune system doesn't work very well just like any organism when it is near death. It will succumb to a parasite, bacteria or virus. They after all have to die from something and we can call it anything we want but it is old age. My Mother died a few years ago. The death certificate said Heart Failure. She was 99 so she really died of old age no matter what they call it.



Not exactly .. He was not successful with "That" fish. He may be successful with the rest of his fish.
If you think you are successful if your fish die after 4 or 5 years you have a very low bar.



Many people forget, I have had my tank for 47 years which is much longer than most of our fish normally live so I have lost hundreds of fish. The ones that jumped out, starved, or were eaten by something else were not a success and I failed with those fish. I fail with corals all the time because corals live forever. Yes,I said forever. But if a fish dies from a disease or parasite, it was not the fishes fault,it was your fault. Even in a power failure, if you did not make provisions for a power failure it was your fault, up t a point. I have a generator but if the power is out for a long time, I will not be able to get gas so maybe the fish will freeze. But at least I tried. So far, my fish lived through many blackouts, storms, hurricanes etc. I have lost fish and corals many times and it was my fault. I went to Germany and left a fish sitter in charge that had no idea how to take care of fish. The water level dropped about 7" and I lost most of my corals. I posted that in my tank thread about 7 years ago. I also killed many fish with Clorox by accident, but it was still my fault so I failed. We fail all the time and it is part of life.
But my fish all die of old age or jumping out or starving because I stupidly got a fish I couldn't properly feed. They never die of parasites or anything else. Never.

I lost a dragon faced pipefish last week. He couldn't find enough to eat and I knew he wouldn't. My friend gave me two of them and I didn't realize they were so large. I still have the other one but I doubt he will die of old age, so I will fail with those fish. My fireclown is 27 years old so if he dies now, I will consider that a success as that is close to what I feel a clownfish should live.

Your missing the basis of this thread which is keeping fish healthy and letting them die of old age.

Paul. Fish that are not exposed to ci still have a complete immune system. Fish not exposed to velvet still have an immune system. People that live in a bubble previously have 1/2 or 1/8 of an immune system. These people get bone marrow transplants. Btw. When they get those transplants they have no immune system at all for weeks. They survive just fine and redeveloped immunity as they are reexposes to new things and their immune cells regenerate. You can not destroy an immune system by keeping a parasite away from a host.

Btw were probably all misusing terms somewhat. The bacteria that live on our skin were not immune to them.

You’re right about being successful with 1 fish vs as an aquarist in general. But I thought your point was that people that qt never have fish die of old age like yours. This by definition none of them could be successful

 

[MnFish1]

I agree with you, it's not the CI in the worms, but rather the theory that the dirty worms and other whole foods help to build the immune system up.

Right that’s the part of the theory that has no real basis or evidence to back it up

 

[Paul B]

Paul. Fish that are not exposed to ci still have a complete immune system. Fish not exposed to velvet still have an immune system. People that live in a bubble previously have 1/2 or 1/8 of an immune system. These people get bone marrow transplants. Btw. When they get those transplants they have no immune system at all for weeks. They survive just fine and redeveloped immunity as they are reexposes to new things and their immune cells regenerate. You can not destroy an immune system by keeping a parasite away from a host.

I respectively disagree. It is what it is.

 

[Paul B]

But I thought your point was that people that qt never have fish die of old age like yours. This by definition none of them could be successful

I never said that. I just don't really know so I asked the question so I could find out.

 

[Paul B]

I collected water today. Notice the ice on the railings. The water is 40 degrees and the salinity reads about 0.014 but I can't get an accurate reading until it, and me warms up

 

[Jay Norris]

I collected water today. Notice the ice on the railings. The water is 40 degrees and the salinity reads about 0.014 but I can't get an accurate reading until it, and me warms up

Hi, I am going to collect water tomorrow, weather permitting, but the air temps here should be in the low 80's, and my salinity better be very close to 1.026, and there better not be any ice, except in my cooler. You are a much braver man then me to get into 40 degree water with ice on the land.

 

[atoll]

Not trying to get into an argument but woukd like to know if either one of you kept an Achilles tang? The mother of of all ich magnet and usually the first to shows symptoms. Just curious.

Sorry its been asked and answered on here before about tangs and we are just repeating and going round in circles IMO.

 

[Thales]

Not trying to get into an argument but woukd like to know if either one of you kept an Achilles tang? The mother of of all ich magnet and usually the first to shows symptoms. Just curious.

I have. 4. QT'd at work 12 years ago. No ich, still alive. Ich in exhibit from time to time, they never show it.

 

[Amps Reef Life]

Man, this a long thread and honestly I did get time to read everything but I did read a lot at the beginning. I am currently in a battle with marine velvet and could really use to advise.

Current stock
5 leopard wrasse all different types
1 flame wrasse
2 Golden dwarf eels
1 copper band.
1 Yellow Tang

I am looking at buying multiple QT tanks to pull all my fish in and go fallow and treat my current fish but I am worried about stressing and killing the wrasse that I hold very close to my heart. Should I leave the tank alone and just not add any more fish as the current stocks seem to unaffected by marine velvet or should I pull everything and QT it? I have been trying to gather as much information as possible before I do anything to my reef tank.

Here is the thread about my post with marine ick so that I can provide as much information as possible.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i-need-help-with-id-on-fish-sickness.541025/#post-5588656

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. In the end, I may just leave the tank as is and see how things go but I would like to add a few more fish and dang I sure miss my tangs.

If needed please PM me.

 

[EmdeReef]

Yes, I would. If your fish died of a parasite, that is because you let him die from that parasite. Fish should never die from a parasite and I am pretty sure they don't in the sea. Fish should be immune from parasites, but if they were quarantined, they will not be. Healthy fish in a natural non quarantined tank are immune to parasites just as they are in the sea. That is the entire basis of this thread. How to keep fish in a non quarantined tank without them "ever" dying from a parasite or anything else except old age.

Parasites would cease to exist if fish in the sea were immune. Quite the opposite is true, parasitic infections are extremely common and by some proxies on the rise (google disease related to sushi eating in Japan). Out of the sea of studies on this here's one if interested: https://www.int-res.com/articles/feature/q002p001.pdf

Parasites do kill fish in the ocean. While most fish in the ocean likely succumb to predation before parasites, parasitic infections do cause small and large scale dieoffs.

Some examples:

https://hmr.biomedcentral.com/track/pdf/10.1007/BF01989323?site=hmr.biomedcentral.com
https://news.nationalgeographic.com...ills-sharks-rays-san-francisco-bay-protozoan/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14710756
https://hmr.biomedcentral.com/track/pdf/10.1007/BF01989316

As for fish ran through QT being sterile and not being able to spawn etc:
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/jwas.12426

"Prior to introduction into established recirculating systems, all fish were subjected to a 30‐d quarantine period. A prophylactic treatment regime consisting of a chloroquine phosphate bath (10 mg/L for 30 d), levamisole hydrochloride feed (4 g/kg feed, three doses), and praziquantel bath (6 mg/L for 24 h, two doses) was administered to reduce the potential for transmission of parasites from the wild broodstock into the culture environment."

 

[MnFish1]

I respectively disagree. It is what it is.

I respect that. My guess is that when you say 'immune system' you mean something different that what the real 'immune system' is. Thus a misunderstanding. However, you can't disagree with a fact. And what I said in that post is a fact. Its not an opinion. And there is no study that would support that a fish not exposed to CI or velvet does not have an immune system. Just like I (who live in a northern climate) have not lost my immune system because I havent been exposed to malaria. I still have an immune system. I have no immunity to malaria - specifically - but I have immunity to lots of other things. Again - I think we're talking about different things - but that was the point of my issues with your article - you are using terms that are 'your definitions' not a definition that most people might use - and it makes conversation confusing.

Saying as you did earlier in this thread that 'quarantine means 72 days' - is not standard.

 

[MnFish1]

I never said that. I just don't really know so I asked the question so I could find out.

Paul - you're stretching a little. You said - show me a tank with QT method that had fish die of old age. Since no one bit - you suggested that fish in QT tanks die earlier. If they didn't there would be no reason for you to keep mentioning that your fish die of old age. Or?

 

[MnFish1]

Sorry its been asked and answered on here before about tangs and we are just repeating and going round in circles IMO.

Frankly I don't think tangs are 'ich' magnets. Firstly - they are bigger fish - they tend to be darker - and thus CI is easier to see. Many fish get Ci - and you dont ever even see the spots (if they are healthy). I dont think (and this is my anecdote lol) - that tangs that are well fed and healthy have any more or less immunity to CI than other fish (except those that have extremely heavy slime coats)

 

[User1]

I disagree with your disagreement. The maximum age can be determined approximately by how long the longest anyone has had that fish. It is not a perfect system but it is all we have. We know some clownfish live into their 30s so if you have one that dies at 15, that is a failure. Sorry but it is the same as a human. The oldest human lived to about 118 or so. If a person dies at 50, I wouldn't consider that a long life. Would you?
We don't really know how long tangs live but I know I have kept them to about 12 years old. They probably live longer but I know they at least live to 12 so if one died at 6. That is a failure. My mandarin is over 10 years old and I have kept them longer. Carp live about 40 years and some lungfish live for 80 years. Most people keep fish 3 or 4 years and think that is success but it is dismal failure.

I wrote an article about how to tell if a fish dies of old age if you are interested. I am qualified to write such an article because I probably have a tank longer than any researcher, but I am not an expert although being my fish only die of old age, I have seen a lot of fish die that way. If someone only has a tank 5 or 10 years most likely none of their fish died of old age unless they bought Geezer fish.
http://www.saltwatersmarts.com/how-to-tell-marine-fish-dying-old-age-5782/

How many people on here out of the thousands on this site have fish that were quarantined and died of old age?

It isn't the age at which you die but what you accomplished in that time... Not sure what that is from, who said it, whatever. Being 50 something and not knowing anything about my family history I measure success by my children shaking hands, looking at peoples eyes when they speak, and understanding nothing is free in life. So for me - I consider that a long success. It is all I got.

With regards to fish and corals - as long as they are not treated as commodities and the hobbyist cared for it to the best of his/her ability then I would call that success. We do not know how old a fish is when we purchase it. We can only guess and estimate. If my Pajama cardinal was to pass today I would estimate that it lived at least 8 years because that is how long I've owned it. To me that is success because that is all I have to go by and I am not a fortune teller nor can I see into the future.

I'll leave the rest because, well, the human part is what caught my attention along with the fish life span. Measuring success is different so I figured I'd just respond. Maybe should not have...