The Other Way to Run a Reef Tank (no Quarantine)

[DrewBrees713]

What you are referring to is that in your system those fish perished. I don't know what system you run but I have posted mine and Paul his along with a few more and our fish don't secumb to itch. So my statement applies to my nconventional system. I cant comment on yours as I don't know of it. BTW have you read all the other posts myself, Paul and a few more have posted on the issue of itch and our systems?

Yes, I read some but not all the posts. I still stand by my statement though. Regardless what system you run, it still boils down to the individual specimen. Dont know any other fulproof measures other than the ones been proven with a great track record. Thanks!

 

[Todvod]

Thanks Todvod, I think I should just shut up and show pic's of my tank if only as a testament to my methods rather than make comment etc on what people believe is going on science wise. I much prefer the art over the science but respect others may consider the opposite but we can all theorize and put suggestions forward no matter if they are science based or not.
In fact I am not sure I have posted this video of my tank before if I have I apologize in advance.

I’m with you in preferring the art over the science. Thanks for sharing your methods and tank with us.

 

[Todvod]

I’m with you in preferring the art over the science. Thanks for sharing your methods and tank with us.

Nice video. Loved the music as well. All a part of the art, huh?!

 

[MnFish1]

I’m with you in preferring the art over the science. Thanks for sharing your methods and tank with us.

Curious - whats your rationale for saying that?

 

[MnFish1]

I haven't kept SPS for 36 years many I have have been fragged many times or you wouldn't be able to see in the tank and the fish would have nowhere to swim. [emoji6] BTW none of my fish ate 36 years old either

Ah....

 

[MnFish1]

I have a YT and flame angel seem to be doing Ok with ich but my Juvie Imperator and PBT perished. So, in a nut shell, some fish candle it while others cant.
Tbh you cant make a blanket statement all fish can tolerate ich. It’s depend on the individual fish. Thanks!

If you took 10 yellow tangs in a 100 gallon tank and added a small amount of (any poison/disease) - a certain percentage would die. If you added double that amount - more would die, if you added a lethal dose (of whatever it is) - all would die. Thats the way Nature works 'randomly'. Some do better some do worse. But its completely inconsistent. In another tank the yellow tank and flame angel might have died and the imperator would not have died etc. Besides the possible variation between species there's also variability in individual fish (exposure to pathogens, etc),

 

[DrewBrees713]

If you took 10 yellow tangs in a 100 gallon tank and added a small amount of (any poison/disease) - a certain percentage would die. If you added double that amount - more would die, if you added a lethal dose (of whatever it is) - all would die. Thats the way Nature works 'randomly'. Some do better some do worse. But its completely inconsistent. In another tank the yellow tank and flame angel might have died and the imperator would not have died etc. Besides the possible variation between species there's also variability in individual fish (exposure to pathogens, etc),

Then why not subject them all to the measures i alluded to in my other post to level the playing field?

 

[MnFish1]

Then why not subject them all to the measures i alluded to in my other post to level the playing field?

I didnt mean that you were wrong - in the other post - I just meant - Its a crapshoot - like you said. There are too many variables. I dont know about Paul and Atoll - but my guess is that most people that use the immune method - forget their 'deaths' and remember the fish that survive. Thats a pretty common bias to all situati0ns like this

 

[Hermie]

I didn't read all the replies, so sorry if I repeat something here.
1) Does size of the tank matter for this? I just started a 30 gallon salt water tank.
2) Is it possible to actually confirm that there is bad bacteria, viruses, parasites in your water? I wonder if these things can be seen under a microscope or if it would be possible to do some culturing and electrophoresis for identification/confirmation?

there are literally hundreds of things in your tank you can't see or naturally discern with the naked eye, microscope will open up a new world but you will have a hard time surveying all that land

 

[Mortie31]

I didnt mean that you were wrong - in the other post - I just meant - Its a crapshoot - like you said. There are too many variables. I dont know about Paul and Atoll - but my guess is that most people that use the immune method - forget their 'deaths' and remember the fish that survive. Thats a pretty common bias to all situati0ns like this

I think it’s a bias no matter what “method” you follow, it appears to be human nature

 

[Paul B]

. Dont know any other fulproof measures other than the ones been proven with a great track record.

What is a proven track record? Would that be the longest fish live without being sick? If it is, then I think my and Atolls way wins.

Just a thought.

Like I mentioned, the only true success is from birth to death by old age, with no sickness in between, that is true success. And only if all your fish do that. Anything else, you failed.
I didn't make that up.....OK,,,Yes I did.

If you don't keep a tank long enough for fish to die of old age, you can't be in the contest because you will never know if you were successful.

 

[atoll]

Yes, I read some but not all the posts. I still stand by my statement though. Regardless what system you run, it still boils down to the individual specimen. Dont know any other fulproof measures other than the ones been proven with a great track record. Thanks!

That's the whole point mine, Paul's and others do have a proven track record with not QTing. As we have posted many times on here and elsewhere, we have healthy thriving fish that show no signs of any diseases.

 

[User1]

We used to pull from Ocean Beach using an old system and old pumps. The pumps had to run 24/7 and we had a lot of water that we had to put to sewer. Too much. Plus, the water came in at 28ppt, and we had to add salt mix to bring it to 35ppt. Then IO moved to the East Coast and got even more expensive. All that combined showed us that making our own salt mix onsite was better all the way around. We have talked about extending the intake out a mile or two (right now it is under the beach), but that's a huge capital project.

At home I use filtered NSW from SeaPure. The water is collected in Half Moon Bay, filtered, and then delivered. I get 400 gallons every few months. Its a little more expensive than saltmix, but I don't have to make water carry salt around.



Excellent.

Cool - thanks for the info. It was something that crossed my mind when I was watching the video and your work.

 

[mav1ms]

This might be answered already, but where does one get white worms?

You can get white worms through Amazon, or any online retailer. They will come as a culture and you'll need to place dirt in a container. I keep multiple cultures and feed them white bread with plain (not vanilla) yogurt. Cheapest bread and yogurt you can get. I get enough worms to feed 3 times daily from 4 shoebox size containers.

 

[MnFish1]

I think it’s a bias no matter what “method” you follow, it appears to be human nature

Right that’s the point of the whole discussion.

 

[MnFish1]

What is a proven track record? Would that be the longest fish live without being sick? If it is, then I think my and Atolls way wins.

Just a thought.

Like I mentioned, the only true success is from birth to death by old age, with no sickness in between, that is true success. And only if all your fish do that. Anything else, you failed.
I didn't make that up.....OK,,,Yes I did.

If you don't keep a tank long enough for fish to die of old age, you can't be in the contest because you will never know if you were successful.

Disagree. You have no way to know what your fish died from. And no one really knows what old age is for a fish let alone many different species.

But that said. Let’s say a person sets up a tank. With 10 fish. That are tank raised. They are never exposed to CI or velvet but they are exposed to bacteria etc. ie their water and food is not sterile. What prevents that tank owner from being successful and raising fish to an old age? I mean were and smallpox and measles. trying to eliminate malaria. There is no reason that a fish raised in a tank without velvet won’t live as long as one exposed to it.

 

[Todvod]

Curious - whats your rationale for saying that?

Nothing deep and probably not aligned with what Atoll was meaning. I just want a beautiful tank and prefer the art(or aesthetics) discussion over the science discussion. The mental effort involved on the science side can hurt the brain. [emoji12]

 

[MnFish1]

That's the whole point mine, Paul's and others do have a proven track record with not QTing. As we have posted many times on here and elsewhere, we have healthy thriving fish that show no signs of any diseases.

Everyone agrees with you. That said every zoo and aquarium and fish breeder in the country uses some kind of qt method. The point is it isn’t either or. The people that qt don’t do it because they like extra work. They do it because over time it has been shown to be safe and effective if done correctly and solves the problem of parasites in the tank. Just like The WHO is trying to eliminate malaria. There is nothing negative that can happen be eliminating velvet from our tanks. Imho

 

[Hermie]

No kidding, but I just had a nightmare last night where I put two non-QT'd puffers in my tank ! lol The rest of the inhabitants were at a terrible risk of infections.

 

[atoll]

Everyone agrees with you. That said every zoo and aquarium and fish breeder in the country uses some kind of qt method. The point is it isn’t either or. The people that qt don’t do it because they like extra work. They do it because over time it has been shown to be safe and effective if done correctly and solves the problem of parasites in the tank. Just like The WHO is trying to eliminate malaria. There is nothing negative that can happen be eliminating velvet from our tanks. Imho

Not what you said before hence my replies or I wouldn't have but whatever you think fine. Those of us who have success not QTing over many years will continue to practice our methods and those that believe QTing is the only way to ensure disease free aquariums will continue or if thats their preferred method. However? the fact remains some of us have kept marines for many years not QTing and we have done so with some of the most delicate fish including tangs and angels.