The Other Way to Run a Reef Tank (no Quarantine)

[Thales]

Thanks Todvod, I think I should just shut up and show pic's of my tank if only as a testament to my methods rather than make comment etc on what people believe is going on science wise. I much prefer the art over the science but respect others may consider the opposite but we can all theorize and put suggestions forward no matter if they are science based or not.

I am still so confused. Did someone tell you you can't put forward suggestions?
Please please please don't that that as me being a jerk. It is an actual question.

And, nice tank!

 

[atoll]

I am still so confused. Did someone tell you you can't put forward suggestions?
Please please please don't that that as me being a jerk. It is an actual question.

Now am confused. I was simply thanking you for complementing me on my tank, the rest is just waffling not aimed at anybody in particular nor suggesting people can't make comments or suggestions, god forbid. [emoji3] I just think I may have written too much on this thread and it can get repetitive.

 

[Jay Norris]

Thanks Todvod, I think I should just shut up and show pic's of my tank if only as a testament to my methods rather than make comment etc on what people believe is going on science wise. I much prefer the art over the science but respect others may consider the opposite but we can all theorize and put suggestions forward no matter if they are science based or not.
In fact I am not sure I have posted this video of my tank before if I have I apologize in advance.

Very nice tank, but I thought your corals would be bigger after 36yrs.

 

[atoll]

Very nice tank, but I thought your corals would be bigger after 36yrs.

I haven't kept SPS for 36 years many I have have been fragged many times or you wouldn't be able to see in the tank and the fish would have nowhere to swim. [emoji6] BTW none of my fish ate 36 years old either

 

[MaccaPopEye]

I've only been in the hobby for 4 years now. My first tank (that I had for almost 2 years) was filled with NSW and used NSW for water changes, started with live rock straight out of the ocean a hundred metres off shore and I fed frozen & fresh foods. The tank wasn't exactly pretty but I had 3 tangs (a blue, a yellow & a bristle tooth), a pair of clowns, some damsels and gobies etc. I did lose 4 fish in that time, but all 4 fish were from a LFS down south that had to fly the fish up to me and all of them died within a month, at the time I had no idea why as there was no signs of disease on any of them.

When I upgraded to a bigger tank just over 2 years ago I wanted to "do it right" so I started with acid bathed dry rock, ASW, bacteria in a bottle and tried to bring as little as possible over from the old tank (apart from fish). I started feeding pellets with an auto feeder and did all of my water changes with ASW (not that it helped much, a tiny bit of derbesia made it through and took over the tank in no time).

6 months later I added 2 butterfly fish (straight from ocean to tank) and within a month of adding them I had a velvet outbreak. In less than a week from the first sings of illness all of my fish died except the blue tang and a black cardinal fish.

I instantly started looking into how I could remove and treat the 2 remaining fish while having the DT go fallow etc. and how I could set up a QT tank for new arrivals in the future.

In my research I realised that if I didn't QT and treat every fish (observation just isn't enough to guarantee no dormant illnesses), and QT all other additions for a minimum of 76 days in a fishless tank it could all just happen again (which really needs 2 separate QT tanks, one for fish and one for everything else). The chances would certainly be less than just adding everything with no QT but it's still a chance. I didn't have enough room for 1 QT tank, let alone 2.

Then I found some of @Paul B's threads and I thought it was worth a go. I started doing water changes with NSW again and started feeding frozen & fresh foods.

A couple of months after the outbreak I tried a small scribbled angel. However at the same time I went through a very busy period in my life and put the auto pellet feeder back on again and didn't have time to go and collect NSW. The angel lasted 2 months before it got velvet and died, the blue tang and black cardinal were both still fine. This confirmed to me that velvet was still 100% in my tank and also made me wonder if the lack of good food and fresh NSW had an effect. So I began feeding the fresh & frozen foods and started the NSW water changes again.

In July last year I started re-stocking the tank again and I haven't had any deaths since (9 fish now). I don't have any Acanthurus tangs but I do have the blue tang, a bristle tooth tang and a scribbled angelfish which show no signs of illness.

I also did end up getting a UV sterilizer as well, while I know Paul says it's not crucial, it gives me a little more peace of mind that it helps to keep parasite populations low.

Having said all of that I am still not yet confident to say that my tank is actually ich / velvet resistant yet although I am confident both are present in the system yet I have had no signs of them for over 6 months.

Going forward I will ensure that I keep:
- Feeding lots of good fresh and frozen food,
- Doing at least monthly NSW water changes even if my parameters don't need a water change, and
- Running the UV steriliser 24/7 just to be sure.

 

[Mortie31]

Wow, that stinks and is the stuff that really can discourage even a seasoned aquarist. Thank you for posting your experience however, even as painful as it was.

I have been in the hobby a long time, (not near as long as PaulB, but since the 90s) and I run my fish reef tank very much like you and some of the other long time aquarist. Lots of LR transferred to each new tank I changed to, live sand also transferred to the new tank upgrades. I feed heavily using a variety of frozen food, live food and quality dried food. I do not have access to NSW but if I did I would be using it. I do regimented water changes (7%) weekly and a little sand bed maintenance monthly.

The one area I have started to diverge is I have started putting new fish in a separate tank with LR from the sump and water from the tank system and I add lots of macro algae to make the fish feel safe and hidden. The main reason I do this instead of adding directly to my DT is that I have lost new fish to not eating. My theory is that they were dealing with a lot of adjustments like different water (salinity, PH, temperature, possible exposure to pathogens), tankmates, and new surroundings. If I separate them for a week or 2, they can adjust to the water only and I can get them eating well before they have to deal with their tank mates and finding their place in the reef. That has worked pretty well for me.

What I appreciate from your post is that I rely predominantly on observation of my tank and my instincts. I can sense when my fish are all comfortable and have their place in the hierarchy. I can also sense if adding another fish might disrupt that and your post has reinforced to me how important that gut instinct is to the well being of the tank. None of us wants to go through what you experienced but when an opportunity comes along for our favorite 'dream fish' we can all be tempted. Hearing your experience is going to give me more will power to say no next time I am tempted, I hope!

There are still so many mysteries in this hobby as there is in much of life. As humans I don't believe that we will ever understand everything and that is ok. I appreciate again what you shared to help enlighten the rest of us. Best wishes as you restock your fishes!

Thankyou, it was a tough time, but also a time to reflect and take stock, and I have made a few changes, I’ve ordered a new sump and am going back to a large fuge, I’m brewing my own phyto and rotis and adding daily. As far as restocking I’m trying to keep more pairs of fish, it’s something I’ve never done, I was typical in have 1 of many “show” fish, it’s actually not easy to source mated pairs, so far I’ve got a melanarus wrasse pair, 3 canary wrasse, a pair of silver belly wrasse, I’ve managed to introduce a new boyfriend for my 12 yr old maroon clown (remarkably she seems to have accepted him) I’ve already had one issue though I bought a pair of white tail bristletooth tangs, both small, put them in together and I’ve never seen aggression like it, had to pull one out and temporarily house it in a spare tank, I’m feeding it back up and will probably move it on. If anyone has suggestions for pairs I’m all ears... I will be getting a pair of hawkfish, probably flames, I’m also intrigued by @atoll keeping 4 royal grammas and might give them a try..

 

[Thales]

Now am confused. I was simply thanking you for complementing me on my tank, the rest is just waffling not aimed at anybody in particular nor suggesting people can't make comments or suggestions, god forbid. [emoji3] I just think I may have written too much on this thread and it can get repetitive.

that wasn’t me! Thanks for answering!

 

[atoll]

that wasn’t me! Thanks for answering!

Sorry, see, I told you I was confused

 

[MnFish1]

Thanks Todvod, I think I should just shut up and show pic's of my tank if only as a testament to my methods rather than make comment etc on what people believe is going on science wise. I much prefer the art over the science but respect others may consider the opposite but we can all theorize and put suggestions forward no matter if they are science based or not.
In fact I am not sure I have posted this video of my tank before if I have I apologize in advance.

Maybe Paul should have posted a picture of his tank without the article lol. Just kidding

 

[atoll]

Maybe Paul should have posted a picture of his tank without the article lol. Just kidding

Yeah, but that would create anything like the amount of controversy and debate as it has done.

 

[vlangel]

Thankyou, it was a tough time, but also a time to reflect and take stock, and I have made a few changes, I’ve ordered a new sump and am going back to a large fuge, I’m brewing my own phyto and rotis and adding daily. As far as restocking I’m trying to keep more pairs of fish, it’s something I’ve never done, I was typical in have 1 of many “show” fish, it’s actually not easy to source mated pairs, so far I’ve got a melanarus wrasse pair, 3 canary wrasse, a pair of silver belly wrasse, I’ve managed to introduce a new boyfriend for my 12 yr old maroon clown (remarkably she seems to have accepted him) I’ve already had one issue though I bought a pair of white tail bristletooth tangs, both small, put them in together and I’ve never seen aggression like it, had to pull one out and temporarily house it in a spare tank, I’m feeding it back up and will probably move it on. If anyone has suggestions for pairs I’m all ears... I will be getting a pair of hawkfish, probably flames, I’m also intrigued by @atoll keeping 4 royal grammas and might give them a try..

I am guessing your tank is quite large compared to mine from your fish choices. I have a pair of blue dart fish, a pair of yellow head venomous blennies, a pair of pajama cardinals and also pairs of small blennies and gobies that are surely too small for your tank. For sure a pair or group of pajama cardinals should do well. They are not super exciting as far as personality but in my tank the are a water column fish, which I was lacking. It does not sound like you are however.

 

[Paul B]

do you think the difficulty or success of some harder to keep “cleaner” fish ( wrasse, goby....) May be related to whether a tank has a small amount of parasites for these fish to consume; or a sterile tank depriving them of.

- @Paul B being that you don’t medicate for much. Would you let a flashing fish’s parasite/virus run it’s course to build immunity?

I think cleaner fish need parasites to eat, but I doubt they could live on some parasites that normally inhabit a home aquarium. I also think cleaner fish need much larger fish to clean as they swim into their mouth and gills.

I would not try to medicate a flashing fish. I couldn't catch it in my tank if I wanted to.

 

[Mortie31]

I am guessing your tank is quite large compared to mine from your fish choices. I have a pair of blue dart fish, a pair of yellow head venomous blennies, a pair of pajama cardinals and also pairs of small blennies and gobies that are surely too small for your tank. For sure a pair or group of pajama cardinals should do well. They are not super exciting as far as personality but in my tank the are a water column fish, which I was lacking. It does not sound like you are however.

Thankyou, some nice suggestions, my tank is 200 gallons so some may get lost, but I think intermittently seeing fish is good, there not ornaments lol, I will be having a few gobies and anthias but can’t decide which kind yet, I had 6 lyretails before, but may look at other kinds.

 

[LovesDogs_CatsRokay]

This might be answered already, but where does one get white worms?

 

[DrewBrees713]

IME tangs and angels can fight itch off (and should do) provided the condition and care are right. My Royal gramnas which are known to be itch magnets are able to rid themselves of it within 36 hours of intriduction to the DT.

I have a YT and flame angel seem to be doing Ok with ich but my Juvie Imperator and PBT perished. So, in a nut shell, some fish candle it while others cant.
Tbh you cant make a blanket statement all fish can tolerate ich. It’s depend on the individual fish. Thanks!

 

[User1]

that wasn’t me! Thanks for answering!

Totally unrelated to this thread but maybe somewhat I wanted to ask you a quick question. Are you guys pulling any water out of the bay or are you using synthetic / man made? Was just curious.

When I use NSW I'll do a day of diving in Monterey then bring it back home with me to Sacramento. Bay Area is obviously closer but alas no diving.

Edit: No, I'm not stalking you

 

[atoll]

I have a YT and flame angel seem to be doing Ok with ich but my Juvie Imperator and PBT perished. So, in a nut shell, some fish candle it while others cant.
Tbh you cant make a blanket statement all fish can tolerate ich. It’s depend on the individual fish. Thanks!

What you are referring to is that in your system those fish perished. I don't know what system you run but I have posted mine and Paul his along with a few more and our fish don't secumb to itch. So my statement applies to my nconventional system. I cant comment on yours as I don't know of it. BTW have you read all the other posts myself, Paul and a few more have posted on the issue of itch and our systems?

 

[atoll]

Totally unrelated to this thread but maybe somewhat I wanted to ask you a quick question. Are you guys pulling any water out of the bay or are you using synthetic / man made? Was just curious.

When I use NSW I'll do a day of diving in Monterey then bring it back home with me to Sacramento. Bay Area is obviously closer but alas no diving.

Edit: No, I'm not stalking you

I live a long way from the coast so I only use synthetic salt.

 

[Thales]

Totally unrelated to this thread but maybe somewhat I wanted to ask you a quick question. Are you guys pulling any water out of the bay or are you using synthetic / man made? Was just curious.

We used to pull from Ocean Beach using an old system and old pumps. The pumps had to run 24/7 and we had a lot of water that we had to put to sewer. Too much. Plus, the water came in at 28ppt, and we had to add salt mix to bring it to 35ppt. Then IO moved to the East Coast and got even more expensive. All that combined showed us that making our own salt mix onsite was better all the way around. We have talked about extending the intake out a mile or two (right now it is under the beach), but that's a huge capital project.

At home I use filtered NSW from SeaPure. The water is collected in Half Moon Bay, filtered, and then delivered. I get 400 gallons every few months. Its a little more expensive than saltmix, but I don't have to make water carry salt around.

When I use NSW I'll do a day of diving in Monterey then bring it back home with me to Sacramento. Bay Area is obviously closer but alas no diving.

Excellent.

Edit: No, I'm not stalking you

 

[MnFish1]

Yeah, but that would create anything like the amount of controversy and debate as it has done.

What is the controversy? Frankly the only controversy is those saying everyone is attacking 'Pauls Method'. Including You (no offense - its just a true statement). The rest are pointing our facts.