The PSYCHOLOGY of Water Changes

[Peace River]

I'm new to the lingo. Sry...but what are DSB and FOWLR?

@KirstenB - here is a link to an R2R thread with a long list of acronyms, abbreviations, vocabulary, and slang for the reef aquarist. Enjoy!

 

[siggy]

Now if I could figure out how to automate making up saltwater for the water changes that would rally make me lazy lol

Simple, Salt hopper on a scale, auger delivers salt to vessel, meter water, mix, test, repeat..$10k /11k includes a touch screen

 

[Jon Fishman]

Sometimes a water change, is just a water change....

 

[SamsReef]

I consider water changes as the easiest way to maintain good thriving corals - maintain equilibrium of good and bad stuff being built up. I have Stopped dosing anything other than two part in my tank sometime back and have never looked back.

Also, gives me chance to siphon off detritus and occasional cyano. The key is the make the water change simple and as cheap as possible.

Make your own water, use automation as much as possible. Full automation also has risks...for me manual trigger is a fail safe automation.

Sam

 

[lbacha]

I think that's part of the point. Many of us are filtering with either an ats or fuge instead of changing water.

That's the idea behind triton.

Even with triton you do water changes, when you send the icp test in and something is high they tell you to do water changes to reduce it. These are typically the things that we can’t filter for. While you don’t do proactive water changes in triton you definitely do reactive ones. Triton is also based around regular high end testing that tells you exactly what is in you water. Without that regular water changes are the next best thing.

 

[JAMSOURY]

I’m running a calcium reactor and also an algae scrubber. I know calcium reactors provide some trace elements and my algae scrubber keeps nitrates and phosphates low. Just wondering what trace elements the calcium reactor isn’t able to provide and how much I can get away with not doing a water change.

On a side note, I think water changes can be pretty beneficial in removing a little bit of the oils and chemicals that we may be putting in our tank with our hands.

 

[TheHarold]

with no sump? pics? that sounds like your near cycling the tank. how often? when/why do you do your wcs?

Oh I have a sump, reefer 350 . Check out my thread

 

[BeejReef]

I think that's part of the point. Many of us are filtering with either an ats or fuge instead of changing water.

That's the idea behind triton.

Exactly, bc Triton has a methodology. Otherwise, "recycling saltwater" to avoid wasting it (for example, storing used saltwater and filtering it, or running it through a huge fuge) won't address the fundamental issues of unwanted toxins building up and desirable trace elements depleting. In essence, you'd just be approximating a system with a much larger water volume that does not run water changes.

 

[Hemmdog]

I’m running a calcium reactor and also an algae scrubber. I know calcium reactors provide some trace elements and my algae scrubber keeps nitrates and phosphates low. Just wondering what trace elements the calcium reactor isn’t able to provide and how much I can get away with not doing a water change.

On a side note, I think water changes can be pretty beneficial in removing a little bit of the oils and chemicals that we may be putting in our tank with our hands.

Your skimmer mainly gets the oils and all that out for you. Calcium reactors will put trace elements back in your system depending on what media you use. Preferably actual coral skeletons, that way it replenishes all trace elements that were needed to make the coral skeleton that is now your media. The laboratory made stuff only has major elements in it, is that correct @jda ?

 

[Dkeller_nc]

Regarding the expense of water changes, it's actually pretty cheap as a percentage of the total cost of keeping a reef tank. The absolute cost in $$, of course, depends on the frequency of the water changes and the tank size.

But it's worth calculating the electricity cost - you might quickly find out that the salt for doing water changes is pretty insignificant.

 

[jda]

I don't know what is in lab made stuff - only if the manufacturer gives you as assay. If not, then it is a black box and I don't care to use black boxes unless there is no other choice.

I do change water because I am cheap and lazy. If you look for the sales, you can get a box of IO for cheap - $44 the last time that I got 10 boxes. 1 bag a month changes 44g of water on my 240, or 18%. All of this for $11. There are no supplements or IC tests that are any cheaper than this. If you struggle, then get a good used strong pump (Mag 12) and a 5o-100 foot garden hose.

Skimmers do get out organics, but also any elements that bind to organics. Copper, tin and other metals will bind to organics and get skimmed out - this is why I am absolutely amazed that people choose to go skimmerless or pour skimmate back into their tanks. Traces can get skimmed out too... which ones depends on the form and the time. Aragonite can also bind metals that may or may not attach to organics, which is why you need to change water to get this stuff out of your tank.

For me, the psychology is easy... out with the bad and in with the fresh and good. This is simple. People overthink this, IMO. As for the equivalency in the OP, beer and pee look the same somewhat see-through yellow, but they are different once you dig in... the 20% that you are throwing away is the beer after it has been in your urinary tract and been used up... it has got to go to make room for the fresh even though they might look the same in a glass at ten feet to the untrained eye. Although beer may look like pee when you are newer to the hobby, you can easily see the difference after a while.

 

[shred5]

Go full Triton,

No need for water changes unless you are trying to achieve a specific goal.

So you spend hundreds on supplements to save 50 dollars in salt?

Personally I would still do water changes, Triton does not test for everything and water changes are to remove as well as add. They do not test for coral or algae Allelopathy do they?

I actually do like the Triton method but personally I would still do water changes.

The thing about a reef is calcium carbonate and other items can bind stuff... So you can go for a while before anything will show up in a test.Triton or any method can only test what is actually in the water. So a test shows everything is fine but it is not. Once it start releasing back once it hits saturation or for what ever reason and then you are in trouble and it is hard to reverse..

 

[Hemmdog]

I don't know what is in lab made stuff - only if the manufacturer gives you as assay. If not, then it is a black box and I don't care to use black boxes unless there is no other choice.

I do change water because I am cheap and lazy. If you look for the sales, you can get a box of IO for cheap - $44 the last time that I got 10 boxes. 1 bag a month changes 44g of water on my 240, or 18%. All of this for $11. There are no supplements or IC tests that are any cheaper than this. If you struggle, then get a good used strong pump (Mag 12) and a 5o-100 foot garden hose.

Skimmers do get out organics, but also any elements that bind to organics. Copper, tin and other metals will bind to organics and get skimmed out - this is why I am absolutely amazed that people choose to go skimmerless or pour skimmate back into their tanks. Traces can get skimmed out too... which ones depends on the form and the time. Aragonite can also bind metals that may or may not attach to organics, which is why you need to change water to get this stuff out of your tank.

For me, the psychology is easy... out with the bad and in with the fresh and good. This is simple. People overthink this, IMO. As for the equivalency in the OP, beer and pee look the same somewhat see-through yellow, but they are different once you dig in... the 20% that you are throwing away is the beer after it has been in your urinary tract and been used up... it has got to go to make room for the fresh even though they might look the same in a glass at ten feet to the untrained eye. Although beer may look like pee when you are newer to the hobby, you can easily see the difference after a while.

Lol great analogy at the end there.

 

[jda]

If you do not want to do water changes, the DSR is about the only method that is tried and true through a decade. Triton is still in infancy and to me just full of promises still - it might end up being awesome, check back with me in five more years.

DSR also is free and is not a "product" that you have to buy, although you can get stuff from them. http://www.dsrreefing.nl/

I will warn you that DSR, or any other no-water-change method, is a discipline and usually more work and more money than changing water. It is not for the people watching costs or needing to free up time. It is hard work. These folks will also change water when they NEED to - chemical treatment, etc. - or when things just get out of whack. They are just "no water change" for normal day to day stuff.

 

[siggy]

For me, the psychology is easy... out with the bad and in with the fresh and good. This is simple. People overthink this, IMO. As for the equivalency in the OP, beer and pee look the same somewhat see-through yellow, but they are different once you dig in... the 20% that you are throwing away is the beer after it has been in your urinary tract and been used up... it has got to go to make room for the fresh even though they might look the same in a glass at ten feet to the untrained eye. Although beer may look like pee when you are newer to the hobby, you can easily see the difference after a while.

Perfect analogy Cheers!

 

[Scott Campbell]

Well as I stated before, I'm not an expert on the Triton thing, I've only been drinking their CoolAid for about 2-3 months now, but the bottom line is this:

Nitrates and phosphates: These are removed by the combination of Algea in the refugium and protein skimmer. The ALk/mag/Cal supplements for the triton method also have some trace elements that are known to be used up by growing macroalgea (Iron and Molybdenum? come to mind) to promote healthy marcoalgea growth. If you are having what you called "adverse conditions" especially if related to algea/cyano/dinos you should test N and P the old fashioned way, and deal with it as you would otherwise. No need to wait for and waste an ICP test. Bottom line is: no need for water changes from a Nitrate or Phosphate removal standpoint.

Alk/Cal/Mag: These and some trace elements are replenished by using their 2 part (well 4 parts really) supplements. You still test ALK on a regular basis the old fashioned way (unless you have a Triednt or one of them other fancy automatic Alk devices!) and adjust dosing of the ALk/Mg/Cal supplements base on your alkalinity usage. Bottome line again: no need for water changes from a Alk/Cal/Mg dosing standpoint.

Now so far most advanced reefers will agree. If you press them on why they do water changes no one would really say its to remove N and P at any significant scale and no serious acroholic would dare rely on water changes alone to replenish Alk/Mag/cal. Most of them will say they do water changes to replenish trace elements.

Trace elements: This is where the Triton method really shines in my opinion. In the past you would have to rely on water changes and blind luck. This also assumes whatever salt you are using has the elements in "perfect" amounts. Lets say element Z has a desired concentration of 20ppm in the ocean and is used up by growing corals and your tank level is down to 10ppm, a 20% water changes with fresh water at 20ppm of element Z concentration will only get you to 12 ppm, still a far cry from where you need to be!

With ICP testing you take all the guessing out of the trace elements equation. You test the water and replenish as needed (or rarely do a water change to dilute something that is somehow in excess). Bottom line: no need for water changes from a trace element replenishing standpoint.

If there is no reason for water changes from a Nitrate and Phosphate removal standpoint, none from a Alk/Cal/Mg dosing standpoint and none from a trace element standpoint then why are you doing water changes?

There is also some possible benefit from the macroalgea releasing some carbohydrates into the water that are beneficial for corals, but that is going to be hard to prove in my opinion. Just putting it in here as it is, per the documentation from Triton, one of the other benefits of their method.

I essentially follow the Triton method as you describe - but also perform small water changes for the following reasons:

1. Up to a point water changes are more cost effective than dosing if you are dosing nearly everything. Much simpler to change some salt which will cover a broad swath of deficiencies and then dose individually on top of that. So water changes are basically step one of my dosing regimen.

2. My tank always has a couple of things in excess. For me it is zinc and molybdenum. (From food and NoPoX.) Small water changes keep these in check.

3. Dosing a lot of calcium chloride and sodium bicarbonate continually raises my salinity levels. Regular water changes allow me to offset that.

4. I am inclined to think there is more going on in my tank than just N/P/Alk/Cal/Mg & trace elements. Perhaps unknown toxins and organic matter. So it gives me peace of mind to regularly dilute my tank water with new water that is relatively sterile.

So I still think water changes have a place within the Triton framework. As someone who also happens to sell basically the same chemicals to pottery clay people - the Triton prices for diluted trace elements is insane. Just buy the dry chemicals on your own and mix your own solutions. Lots of help for doing that on these forums. Most of these tiny solution quantities that sell for $30 to $50 contain only a penny or two of actual trace elements. The mark-up is amazing.

 

[fishead]

For me small regular water changes are a simple way of maintaining balance and consistency in my water. I just do a bucket every second day in a 160 gallon tank. Manually siphoning out detritus I think makes a water change much more worth while than simply swapping just water. Have a lot of flow so waste gathers in just two spots so is easy to get out. Also I skim pretty wet so my salinity tends to drop. The small water changes also allow me to keep on top of that in very small increments - more of that stability we strive for.
I have an Avast barrel tender fitted into the lid of a 7 gallon bucket so there's a full one sitting there ready to dump some salt in every time. Make it easy and you'll do it a lot more happily. Same as all "chores".

 

[Shaun Sweeney]

I change 90 gallons each week by using local ocean water. I run the new water thru socks while the temp is coming up and I add the missing salt. Day 2 I drain 90 gallons and pump the new stuff in. Maybe it's just in my mind but the tanks seem invigorated when I dump in the new ocean water.

 

[PhreeByrd]

"Dang, I'm about to put 20% of GOOD saltwater down the drain. Salt mix is expensive. I feel like I'm dumping out 20% of GOOD beer out of my fridge or something...I feel like I'm throwing away 20% of my frozen steaks in the freezer. WHAT A WASTE......."

I really don't feel this way at all, even though I'm not religious about my water change schedule. Unless you go completely savage with equipment and monitoring, there are all sorts of undesirable things that slowly build up in the water -- things that just can't be removed by skimming or other filtration... and it's either difficult or impossible to determine exactly what all these things are and what levels are necessary or disadvantageous, much less how important many of them are. It's also, without doing a thorough assay like Triton, either impossible or not feasible to test for most minor trace elements, some of which may be more critical than we currently know. So to me, a water change provides a partial reset of the water parameters, and removes compounds which could be harmful or damaging or just otherwise undesirable. I believe the water change is good for the corals because they always 'perk up' slightly after a water change.

I do not see systems for performing automatic, constant water changes as in any way beneficial other than the time saved. Unless you set things up to change rather large volumes, which wastes a lot of water, you're just not accomplishing very much. And even at that, you are removing relatively very small amounts of really old water along with water that you just recently added as replacement water. To me, that's extremely wasteful and counterproductive.

So I'll keep doing manual water changes as I always have. I consider the water I'm removing to be mostly 'used up', and not as 'good water' going down the drain. It's more like dumping stale, flat beer or throwing out freezer-burned steaks.

 

[ZoWhat]

It's more like dumping stale, flat beer or throwing out freezer-burned steaks.