The relationship between PAR, ORP and....salt brand?

Newb73

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It is no secret that a higher ORP corresponds with increasing clarity and as such, higher measured PAR.

In doing some tweeking I found something interesting. Even when the water is visibly "crystal clear" you can still measure differences in PAR with even higher ORP numbers.

As I use both Instant Ocean and Fritz I have found that with my AWC system my ORP stays a bit depressed when on IO and will raise drastically when running Fritz.

The highest ORP numbers I get on IO will be around 375 with averages in the low 300s. When running Fritz I see numbers well into the 450s and 460s and occasionally hit my safety shut value, shutting down the ozone generator (I already don't run it at night as it is so it is very unusual for me to hit a peak value as it spends have the day raising back up from what ever low value it hit will being off).

What I observed just now is that I had my lights dialed in to a value I had chosen as the highest par numbers I was comfortable with (just over 300) in the hottest spots...and then after switching to fritz I was getting numbers as high as 360 at times. This means that you can potentially get a PAR swing with a high confidence rate by as much as 10%...and to a lesser confidence rate I will say that the swing could be as much as 20%, based not only on the old adage of (you get a spike when you change your carbon or do a big water change and get cleaner water) but also....based on the salt brand you pick.

I never would have believed it as the tank appears crystal clear to my eye using either and I couldn't imagine it making much difference in PAR even worth mentioning but I feel fairly confident that I could graph this out in a trend line fairly convincingly.

Unfortunately I have been tinkering and moving my PAR meter around in the tank and also trying to adjust my lights down so as not to over light my corals so my current graph lines suck and wouldn't show what I am explain but as I said, after my observations I feel it could be graphed fairly easily.

This may only be true in a tank where ozone is actively running. I have NO IDEA what the various impacts on ORP from different salt brands would be in a tank not running ozone...and in fact, many/most people don't even monitor ORP so are unaware of the ORP differences associated with different salt mixes.

This may also not be measured the same on someone NOT running continuous AWC water changes because it has been documented that the shifts in ORP from water changes are not sustained long term/are temporary shifts for people who do batch water changes.
 
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Newb73

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As i said, this graph will NOT show what i said due to changes in light power and par measured position but i did (for example), measure PAR at 321 with an ORP of 413 compared to a PAR reading of 361 at an ORP of 439, same spot...same lighting conditions. And what was making ORP rise was the AWC running fritz instead of IO.

One additional observation is the "burn rate"/longevity issue w LEDs.

LEDs do not illuminate at a consistent brightness throughout their life span and i am finding as much as a 10% difference or more among my LED fixtures which have been in use for 3 or more years where the fixtures were run over the same tank in the same conditions for the same photo periods.

You can compensate for individual fixtures with AI and Radions but it removes your ability to copy and paste the same program across all lights.

With Daisy chained Kessils, compensation is not easy, though you cam run 2 diffetent programs if you use a spectral controller and not a VDM port.
 
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Newb73

Newb73

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It might also be useful to post this.

Instant ocean: Target hotspot PAR 300. Al Hydra settings max photo: 75% 4 Hours.

Fritz: Target hotspot PAR 300. AL hydra settings max: 60% 4 Hours.

If you allow +/- 5% for user error that's still a pretty large variance in lighted power requirements to achieve the same light.

In theory, one could change salt brands and burn their corals by overlighting them without even understanding what occured.

It happened to me and i almost missed it...if not for my pmk.
 

rkpetersen

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I haven't tried testing the light intensity present with different salt mixes; interesting stuff, but those differences you're describing are hard to believe!

I will say though that different salt mixes used for water changes can have dramatically different effects on ORP. I only change 5% at a time, but even so, most freshly mixed saltwater tends to drop ORP acutely, with subsequent return to baseline partially naturally and partially through ozonation. I recently switched to Red Sea Coral Pro and while I love the salt because of its very high alk content, boy does it knock my tank's ORP right into the gutter, even with a small water change. Not entirely sure what component of the mix is doing this. Some additives like ferrous iron or ascorbic acid acutely depress ORP, but those factors wouldn't seem to apply. Manganese in the +2 state is also known to depress ORP, and Coral Pro is quite high in manganese, so that may be the reason.
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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I have to say I do not believe there is a direct connection at all between ORP and light absorbance in general.

What there is likely to be in an operating reef aquarium (not a raw salt mix) is a correlation between levels of many types of organic matter, and both ORP and light absorbance.

For example, I can easily jigger the ORP up and down with inorganic oxidizers and reducers, and those will have no direct impact on light absorbance. It’s not unless and until they react with organic chromophores that light penetration changes. [emoji3]
 
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Newb73

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I haven't tried testing the light intensity present with different salt mixes; interesting stuff, but those differences you're describing are hard to believe!

I will say though that different salt mixes used for water changes can have dramatically different effects on ORP. I only change 5% at a time, but even so, most freshly mixed saltwater tends to drop ORP acutely, with subsequent return to baseline partially naturally and partially through ozonation. I recently switched to Red Sea Coral Pro and while I love the salt because of its very high alk content, boy does it knock my tank's ORP right into the gutter, even with a small water change. Not entirely sure what component of the mix is doing this. Some additives like ferrous iron or ascorbic acid acutely depress ORP, but those factors wouldn't seem to apply. Manganese in the +2 state is also known to depress ORP, and Coral Pro is quite high in manganese, so that may be the reason.
I don't much believe it either.

When i get back from Nashville im going to find a long term spot for my pmk and trend this out over a few weeks with the two salt brands...

It was startling how much i needed to turm my lights back down so i need to remove as many variables as possible, lock in a spot for the probe, a light schedule, feed exactly the same every day...possibly remove the carbon completely for a while etc. To see if the trend remains.

I never wanted to be an experimental aquarist, all the glory is in theoretical work...
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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