There must be more to this???.

[Matt Jackson]

Hi everyone,

There is definitely something up with my tank but I can’t figure it out.

Inside the tank is
1x hippo tang
1x shrimp goby, [he was paired with a pistol shrimp that I used to see regular but not seen or heard anything for weeks]
2x blue damsels
2x clowns
2x cleaner shrimp
2x orange lipped conch’s
20-30 blue legged hermits
1x turbo snail (just about)

tank is a rsr 250 with xr15 gen 4 pros x2

I started it a year ago with dry marco rock.

I definitely caused the initial problem, I had both lights on a 12 hour schedule set to 80-90% and thats what I believe triggered a big GHA problem. I reduced the lighting to 40% and reduced the whites as well, i also reduced the hours to 6 a day but it does get a bit of natural light as well.
I had 3 big trochus snails at the time but they couldn’t keep up. I then dosed the tank 3 times with vibrant over the course of 3 weeks, it did nothing. and shortly after the snails died one after the other over 4 weeks.

I started a thread on here about combating GHA and there were some great suggestions, I did a few things over the course of approximately 3 weeks.


week 1 I added 4 turbo snails, there were very active for maybe the first week but that slowly stopped and I have lost 3 of them with one barley hanging in there.

week 2 I took out the worst affected rock and scrubbed it in a tote of rodi and rinsed with rodi, it looked good. I brushed the other rocks in the tank as well without moving them to try and eliminate as much as I could.

4 days later I got a sea hare, it was about 4” long and was like a combine harvester to begin with and then it looked like it was getting lazy, I heard they do that and hide. I woke up today and saw where it was and then when I got home it didn’t look right, it hadn’t moved any and the colour was off and it just looked stiff, I got the net out and moved it and plumes of dark cloudy stuff was coming from it, i removed it and it stunk and it went down the toilet.

I have kept on top of the water changes and testing, I do 20% changes every 2weeks. I test regularly and nothing out the ordinary.
tonight’s readings are

phosphate 0.00 with a hanna checker
ph 8.4
amonia 0
nitrite 0
nitrate 0-5 (looked more between the two of them)
33ppt salinity (refractor)
78 temp (apex)

Accept phosphate the other tests are with API, I’m going to try and change to better ones like hanna for the rest.

the GHA still seems to be growing and even re appeared on the rocks i removed to clean.

There are a lot of pods in the tank as well, they are all over the sand bed when lights out, I dose trace elements once a week and add stability after water changes. I use instant ocean salt and mix it a day before at tank temp, I feed a mix of frozen and flake/pellet mix everyday.

I have tried to get the pistol shrimp out by blocking the cave with sand but the goby unblocks it every time and no longer the shrimp, it used to move tons of sand. I don’t think it could be squashed by rock either as I put the base rock directly on the glass and then added the live sand.

I have no coralline algae either. I tried scraping some off a small piece of rock I got from the lfs and adding it to the tank but that didn’t work.

maybe one or multiple issues here???

 

[King Turkey]

Add a algae turff scrubber it will be on the scrubber instead of tank. You read zero phosphate and nitrate because it's bound in the algae.. algae taking it up faster than u can test for.
Soo u could do this different ways.
A let it play out reduce feeding more water changes
B my favorite algae turf scrubber
C second favorite buy Dr Tim's waste away
D learn to carbon dose.
Note: don't carbon dose and Dr Tim's bad things happen if together.
P.s Dr Tim's rocks and so does algae scrubber. I went thru the same thing as you are explaining minus the sea hair.. I suggest running carbon since it died and big wc

 

[living_tribunal]

Hi everyone,

There is definitely something up with my tank but I can’t figure it out.

Inside the tank is
1x hippo tang
1x shrimp goby, [he was paired with a pistol shrimp that I used to see regular but not seen or heard anything for weeks]
2x blue damsels
2x clowns
2x cleaner shrimp
2x orange lipped conch’s
20-30 blue legged hermits
1x turbo snail (just about)

tank is a rsr 250 with xr15 gen 4 pros x2

I started it a year ago with dry marco rock.

I definitely caused the initial problem, I had both lights on a 12 hour schedule set to 80-90% and thats what I believe triggered a big GHA problem. I reduced the lighting to 40% and reduced the whites as well, i also reduced the hours to 6 a day but it does get a bit of natural light as well.
I had 3 big trochus snails at the time but they couldn’t keep up. I then dosed the tank 3 times with vibrant over the course of 3 weeks, it did nothing. and shortly after the snails died one after the other over 4 weeks.

I started a thread on here about combating GHA and there were some great suggestions, I did a few things over the course of approximately 3 weeks.


week 1 I added 4 turbo snails, there were very active for maybe the first week but that slowly stopped and I have lost 3 of them with one barley hanging in there.

week 2 I took out the worst affected rock and scrubbed it in a tote of rodi and rinsed with rodi, it looked good. I brushed the other rocks in the tank as well without moving them to try and eliminate as much as I could.

4 days later I got a sea hare, it was about 4” long and was like a combine harvester to begin with and then it looked like it was getting lazy, I heard they do that and hide. I woke up today and saw where it was and then when I got home it didn’t look right, it hadn’t moved any and the colour was off and it just looked stiff, I got the net out and moved it and plumes of dark cloudy stuff was coming from it, i removed it and it stunk and it went down the toilet.

I have kept on top of the water changes and testing, I do 20% changes every 2weeks. I test regularly and nothing out the ordinary.
tonight’s readings are

phosphate 0.00 with a hanna checker
ph 8.4
amonia 0
nitrite 0
nitrate 0-5 (looked more between the two of them)
33ppt salinity (refractor)
78 temp (apex)

Accept phosphate the other tests are with API, I’m going to try and change to better ones like hanna for the rest.

the GHA still seems to be growing and even re appeared on the rocks i removed to clean.

There are a lot of pods in the tank as well, they are all over the sand bed when lights out, I dose trace elements once a week and add stability after water changes. I use instant ocean salt and mix it a day before at tank temp, I feed a mix of frozen and flake/pellet mix everyday.

I have tried to get the pistol shrimp out by blocking the cave with sand but the goby unblocks it every time and no longer the shrimp, it used to move tons of sand. I don’t think it could be squashed by rock either as I put the base rock directly on the glass and then added the live sand.

I have no coralline algae either. I tried scraping some off a small piece of rock I got from the lfs and adding it to the tank but that didn’t work.

maybe one or multiple issues here???

What’s most likely happening is the gha is the dominant consumer of the tank. When it gets to that point, it will consume all freed nitrate and phosphate. This keeps both po4 and N at 0 or close to it.

Furthermore, at this stage heavy exporting alone won’t work, nor vibrant. It can, but you risk killing off corals from phosphate deficiency.

If I were you, I’d focus on a multi-tiered attack plan. The most impactful thing you can do by far is manual removal. Try getting in there with a Turkey baster and suck it up or blow it off for your filter sock to collect. To not tick off everything in the tank, use a net and swish it back and forth to collect all the smaller pieces.

I know it’s a pain but be sure to do this every day.

The other difficulty is parameter control. Your phosphate and nitrate is already at 0 but you still have to export just a tad bit more in order to really ensure it dies off and isn’t recycled. This is a terribly difficult balancing act so handle it very very slowly in small increments. So add another hour or two to your fuge photoperiod, another half cup of phosguard, etc. Whatever your export method, bump it up by a smidgen.

This will definitely tick stuff off, they are most likely deficient in po4 and nitrate but it has to be done.

Another thing I’d do after you manually remove a lot is first dose vibrant then do a three day black out. Blackouts work and can really turn the nutrient consumption dominance away from gha back to bacteria and other, more hospitable, organisms.

Now while you’re doing a black out, your corals will not require as much po4 and N so you can really hike up your export. You need to make sure “nutrients” are low coming out of the blackout or it will come right back. It should kill off most of it though.

After you do the manual removal and black out, you should have made a huge dent and vibrant, low nutrients should handle the rest. It’s all about tipping the consumption in favor of something better. To do that, your going to have to eliminate a lot.

 

[tricky_tran]

out of curiosity, what kind of water do you use? RODI?

 

[OrangeCountyReefer]

emerald crabs. You can’t find a single string of any algae in my tank and it’s because of those dang crabs putting in work 24/7

 

[Powertool-2010]

As a disclaimer I am by no means an expert. Do you have any filtration?
If you have a sump I'd set up a refugium, or I might try a filtration media like GFO that absorbs phosphate or nitrogen. An algae scrubber is also an option, but I have not used one before. There are obviously nutrients in your display as the algae signifies. Since you don't have corals (I assume) the display tank lighting is really just aesthetic, so If feasible lower the lighting more. Also make sure you aren't overfeeding. In addition trace elements are useless if you aren't growing coral and will definitely help contribute to growing algae, so probably don't continue dosing.
The refugium would let you have a full power light, that would let you grow algae that would outcompete anything in the display (algae scrubber work the same way). For refugium it can even be the same algae, as we know that is growing well with your parameters in the display (I have had problems getting a specific algae type to grow, and essentially have found that the algae type most suitable for absorbing the ratio of nutrients in your tank is often the one already doing so). The possible caviot is the amount of natural light the tank is getting because natural light is very good for plant growth. Also vibrant takes months to work not weeks in my experience. And works best if paired with diligent cleaning to begin with.

 

[Matt Jackson]

Add a algae turff scrubber it will be on the scrubber instead of tank. You read zero phosphate and nitrate because it's bound in the algae.. algae taking it up faster than u can test for.
Soo u could do this different ways.
A let it play out reduce feeding more water changes
B my favorite algae turf scrubber
C second favorite buy Dr Tim's waste away
D learn to carbon dose.
Note: don't carbon dose and Dr Tim's bad things happen if together.
P.s Dr Tim's rocks and so does algae scrubber. I went thru the same thing as you are explaining minus the sea hair.. I suggest running carbon since it died and big wc

Thanks for the response. I will look in to a turf scrubber this weekend. Is this the cause for the snails and hare not lasting then?
I do need to learn a bit more about the chemistry but it goes right over my head.

 

[Matt Jackson]

out of curiosity, what kind of water do you use? RODI?

I’m using a reef crest rodi unit, I was using an RO buddy but I wasn’t pleased with it so been using the reef crest with a tds meter for the last 3 months.

 

[Matt Jackson]

emerald crabs. You can’t find a single string of any algae in my tank and it’s because of those dang crabs putting in work 24/7

I will look in to this but don’t want to add anything else just yet as the last things I added only lasted a week or 2.

 

[Matt Jackson]

As a disclaimer I am by no means an expert. Do you have any filtration?
If you have a sump I'd set up a refugium, or I might try a filtration media like GFO that absorbs phosphate or nitrogen. An algae scrubber is also an option, but I have not used one before. There are obviously nutrients in your display as the algae signifies. Since you don't have corals (I assume) the display tank lighting is really just aesthetic, so If feasible lower the lighting more. Also make sure you aren't overfeeding. In addition trace elements are useless if you aren't growing coral and will definitely help contribute to growing algae, so probably don't continue dosing.
The refugium would let you have a full power light, that would let you grow algae that would outcompete anything in the display (algae scrubber work the same way). For refugium it can even be the same algae, as we know that is growing well with your parameters in the display (I have had problems getting a specific algae type to grow, and essentially have found that the algae type most suitable for absorbing the ratio of nutrients in your tank is often the one already doing so). The possible caviot is the amount of natural light the tank is getting because natural light is very good for plant growth. Also vibrant takes months to work not weeks in my experience. And works best if paired with diligent cleaning to begin with.

How often would you suggest feeding based on the livestock listed? I’m curious if I’m over feeding but don’t want to starve them either. i feed half a cube of frozen mysis and half a cube of frozen brine shrimp with a pinch of omega flakes and a sprinkle of algae pellets every evening. I have only a small piece of GSP which has gone through a lot but still hanging in there. I just have filter socks in the sump and some marine pure blocks (I think that’s what they are called) skimmer is a nyos 120.

 

[Matt Jackson]

What’s most likely happening is the gha is the dominant consumer of the tank. When it gets to that point, it will consume all freed nitrate and phosphate. This keeps both po4 and N at 0 or close to it.

Furthermore, at this stage heavy exporting alone won’t work, nor vibrant. It can, but you risk killing off corals from phosphate deficiency.

If I were you, I’d focus on a multi-tiered attack plan. The most impactful thing you can do by far is manual removal. Try getting in there with a Turkey baster and suck it up or blow it off for your filter sock to collect. To not tick off everything in the tank, use a net and swish it back and forth to collect all the smaller pieces.

I know it’s a pain but be sure to do this every day.

The other difficulty is parameter control. Your phosphate and nitrate is already at 0 but you still have to export just a tad bit more in order to really ensure it dies off and isn’t recycled. This is a terribly difficult balancing act so handle it very very slowly in small increments. So add another hour or two to your fuge photoperiod, another half cup of phosguard, etc. Whatever your export method, bump it up by a smidgen.

This will definitely tick stuff off, they are most likely deficient in po4 and nitrate but it has to be done.

Another thing I’d do after you manually remove a lot is first dose vibrant then do a three day black out. Blackouts work and can really turn the nutrient consumption dominance away from gha back to bacteria and other, more hospitable, organisms.

Now while you’re doing a black out, your corals will not require as much po4 and N so you can really hike up your export. You need to make sure “nutrients” are low coming out of the blackout or it will come right back. It should kill off most of it though.

After you do the manual removal and black out, you should have made a huge dent and vibrant, low nutrients should handle the rest. It’s all about tipping the consumption in favor of something better. To do that, your going to have to eliminate a lot.

I think I will try the blackout. Should I cover the sides to block out all the light or just not keep the lights on. It’s in a well light room and it’s quite light in the daytime as that room has big windows.
I have done the turkey baster for a while now and collected in a net as it was blocking the return going back to the sump and either starving the return pump or causing the ato to top up when not necessary.

 

[Tired]

What does your rock look like, under the hair algae? Still mostly white?

To get rid of hair algae and stop it coming back, you need to outcompete it for space. To outcompete it for space, you need an assortment of other, more well-behaved algaes, ones that won't overrun your corals. Those guys need nutrients. Your corals ALSO need nutrients (and you can kill them with 0 nutrients), for that matter. That's why the coraline didn't do anything, I"ll wager- it can't get any nutrients to grow with.

Snails can't eat long hair algae. You have to pull out the long tufts by hand.

If your algae-eating animals are dying, take a close look at the algae for signs of dinos. Dinos can pop up in tanks with no nutrients, and are toxic to things that eat them.

You might be able to get rid of the hair algae for now with a long enough blackout, but either it or something else will just come back, unless you can crowd it out. You want your nutrients to be high enough for corals and algae to grow. Look up how tanks progress through "the uglies" when they're first set up. You want the algae to grow well, and to use manual removal and cleanup crew to keep the pest stuff from running too rampant, until the slower-growing algaes take over. To keep pest algae away as much as possible, there should be as little room for it as possible.

Also, try not to scrub the rocks repeatedly. It scrubs away any helpful algae trying to grow. Just pull long hair algae tufts, then place snails on the newly short area to eat it.

The goal of a healthy reef isn't to have no algae. It's to have background algae, that doesn't grow over your corals.

 

[King Turkey]

Thanks for the response. I will look in to a turf scrubber this weekend. Is this the cause for the snails and hare not lasting then?
I do need to learn a bit more about the chemistry but it goes right over my head.

I am guessing that the algae could drop the pH at night and swing the alk hard enough( not enough O2 at night) could cause them to die. Caused by all the algae.. but hard to say. They are sensitive to high levels of nitrate. Could be the api could also be wrong and you actually indeed are reading high nitrate or it is right and the nitrate is just being consumed faster than you can test for it.(bound in the algae). Personally Ithink snails just die for no reason sometimes I have had so many die with zero tank issues.

 

[King Turkey]

CW-200 External Algae Scrubber

Solve your nutrient & algae issues with an Algae Turf Scrubber from Clear Water Scrubbers. Algae scrubbers can save you money and time with the minimal maintenance and energy usage. Dimensions - 16" L x 10" W x 11 3/4" H Easy to harvest Safe design Simple to plumb Quality acrylic construction...

www.bulkreefsupply.com

I use this one(but smaller one since I have smaller tank).

 

[Matt Jackson]

What does your rock look like, under the hair algae? Still mostly white?

To get rid of hair algae and stop it coming back, you need to outcompete it for space. To outcompete it for space, you need an assortment of other, more well-behaved algaes, ones that won't overrun your corals. Those guys need nutrients. Your corals ALSO need nutrients (and you can kill them with 0 nutrients), for that matter. That's why the coraline didn't do anything, I"ll wager- it can't get any nutrients to grow with.

Snails can't eat long hair algae. You have to pull out the long tufts by hand.

If your algae-eating animals are dying, take a close look at the algae for signs of dinos. Dinos can pop up in tanks with no nutrients, and are toxic to things that eat them.

You might be able to get rid of the hair algae for now with a long enough blackout, but either it or something else will just come back, unless you can crowd it out. You want your nutrients to be high enough for corals and algae to grow. Look up how tanks progress through "the uglies" when they're first set up. You want the algae to grow well, and to use manual removal and cleanup crew to keep the pest stuff from running too rampant, until the slower-growing algaes take over. To keep pest algae away as much as possible, there should be as little room for it as possible.

Also, try not to scrub the rocks repeatedly. It scrubs away any helpful algae trying to grow. Just pull long hair algae tufts, then place snails on the newly short area to eat it.

The goal of a healthy reef isn't to have no algae. It's to have background algae, that doesn't grow over your corals.

The rock is quite white underneath I would say. I did remove lots of it before adding the snails and hare but that didn’t help. I will try and get another pic and post it. When I first had it I posted pics and was unanimous decision that it was GHA, it doesn’t look like dinos but I will happily take your advic.

I have no corals in the tank if that makes for a better course of action.

I will read in to that post this evening.

 

[Matt Jackson]

Here is a pic and a little video, it is pretty stirred up though as I have been turkey basting blasting and scooping it up with the net.

 

[King Turkey]

U got no corals u say. You could get dino x if ya want a quick way. Be prepared for big water change to get all the releases nitrate phosphate after it dies

 

[Matt Jackson]

U got no corals u say. You could get dino x if ya want a quick way. Be prepared for big water change to get all the releases nitrate phosphate after it dies

Did you see the pic I posted, do you think it’s dinos?
im not necessarily after a rapid fix, more of the best plan of attack and understanding on how to stop it getting like this. I do really want to start adding corals but obviously want to get it under control and stable for a while as well. It’s coming up to a year old I thinks soon.

 

[King Turkey]

Nah it's green hair algae they just have some air bubbles hear is what dinos look like

 

[King Turkey]

Dinos would blow off and disappear but can come back within minutes like they materialized before your eyes.vs hair algae you would have to pull or scrub it off you would see floating around the tank till you scoop it out.