This is what I've dreamed of for so long! Testing for microbes in our tanks!

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The answer to every question here is going to be "maybe" for a long time. lol

 

[Mateusz]

Maybe corals? Ammonia is the preferred nitrogen source of corals, not nitrate.

So even if we have nitrate present, and phosphate, and everything else checks out on an ICP, could it be something like a low level of ammonia is missing from the system for the corals? Curious and thinking about the random die offs i've ever had with no explanation, especially softies... @Randy Holmes-Farley any input here? Thank you

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So even if we have nitrate present, and phosphate, and everything else checks out on an ICP, could it be something like a low level of ammonia is missing from the system for the corals? Curious and thinking about the random die offs i've ever had with no explanation, especially softies... @Randy Holmes-Farley any input here? Thank you

Corals may prefer ammonia to nitrate, but the will use nitrate if present, and that should not be a cause of a die off, IMO.

 

[Mateusz]

Corals may prefer ammonia to nitrate, but the will use nitrate if present, and that should not be a cause of a die off, IMO.

Hmmm i've been curious what could be going on... Any way you could shoot me a PM, you may be able to shed more light on something i've been dealing with if you have a moment... If not, I understand.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Hmmm i've been curious what could be going on... Any way you could shoot me a PM, you may be able to shed more light on something i've been dealing with if you have a moment... If not, I understand.

I suggest starting a new thread.

 

[Hans-Werner]

So even if we have nitrate present, and phosphate, and everything else checks out on an ICP, could it be something like a low level of ammonia is missing from the system for the corals?

At least it cannot be totally excluded. Ammonia-oxidizing archaea and corals may compete for ammonia. When ammonia is completely used up corals may have to use nitrate whose assimilation causes oxidative stress to the corals. This may be the "burned-tip-syndrome" of corals under low phosphate - some nitrate conditions.
This situation may be unlikely in tanks with some fish for nutrient supply but may be more likely in tanks that add nitrate for nutrient supply.

This is the reason why I would avoid trickle filters with plastic media, sponges and maybe even filter socks.

 

[Mateusz]

At least it cannot be totally excluded. Ammonia-oxidizing archaea and corals may compete for ammonia. When ammonia is completely used up corals may have to use nitrate whose assimilation causes oxidative stress to the corals. This may be the "burned-tip-syndrome" of corals under low phosphate - some nitrate conditions.
This situation may be unlikely in tanks with some fish for nutrient supply but may be more likely in tanks that add nitrate for nutrient supply.

This is the reason why I would avoid trickle filters with plastic media, sponges and maybe even filter socks.

So as an experiment, I can take some poor performing corals and put them in my small QT and add some ammonia to see if the health were to improve. Would be an interesting experiment I think.... Any idea what I could use as an ammonia source or how to calculate a dosage.... @Randy Holmes-Farley any input here as well? I can get this setup today. We dose coral foods and all kinds of stuff all the time, what if something like this is the missing factor?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So as an experiment, I can take some poor performing corals and put them in my small QT and add some ammonia to see if the health were to improve. Would be an interesting experiment I think.... Any idea what I could use as an ammonia source or how to calculate a dosage.... @Randy Holmes-Farley any input here as well? I can get this setup today. We dose coral foods and all kinds of stuff all the time, what if something like this is the missing factor?

I'd use an ammonium chloride or ammonium carbonate solution for dosing.

Here's a food grade ammonium carbonate:

Food Grade Ammonium Carbonate (or Baker's Ammonia), 8oz. for sale. Buy from The Science Company.

Food Grade Ammonium Carbonate AKA Baker's Ammonia or Hatshorn Salt is used in baking to make crisp and light cookies, such as Icelandic Air Biscuits.

www.sciencecompany.com

 

[MnFish1]

This is the reason why I would avoid trickle filters with plastic media, sponges and maybe even filter socks.

Can you elaborate on this - I dont understand the 'plastic' part? Thanks

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Can you elaborate on this - I dont understand the 'plastic' part? Thanks

I expect the concern is just faster conversion of ammonia to nitrate, than when these devices are not present.

 

[Mateusz]

I'd use an ammonium chloride or ammonium carbonate solution for dosing.

Here's a food grade ammonium carbonate:

Food Grade Ammonium Carbonate (or Baker's Ammonia), 8oz. for sale. Buy from The Science Company.

Food Grade Ammonium Carbonate AKA Baker's Ammonia or Hatshorn Salt is used in baking to make crisp and light cookies, such as Icelandic Air Biscuits.

www.sciencecompany.com

I can get ammonia chloride at the chemical store not far from my work today. Any idea how to calculate a dose?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I can get ammonia chloride at the chemical store not far from my work today. Any idea how to calculate a dose?

That's likely OK since you won't be adding much, but I picked the ammonium carbonate due to it being food grade.

 

[Mateusz]

That's likely OK since you won't be adding much, but I picked the ammonium carbonate due to it being food grade.

Gotcha. I found Ammonium Carbonate but had to order it online. For the experiment i'll grab the Ammonia Chloride, as you said it's very little. Looking at Dr.Tims solution, i'd assume 50mg/litre would be what I should follow for the same concentration as his bottle? I can't seem to find any formula information on how to get a super low dose of the stuff.

Again, thanks for any help, can't wait to try this little experiment today!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Gotcha. I found Ammonium Carbonate but had to order it online. For the experiment i'll grab the Ammonia Chloride, as you said it's very little. Looking at Dr.Tims solution, i'd assume 50mg/litre would be what I should follow for the same concentration as his bottle? I can't seem to find any formula information on how to get a super low dose of the stuff.

Again, thanks for any help, can't wait to try this little experiment today!

I believe there is a critical typo in the directions posted.

These two things cannot possibly both be true, and it is certainly the first one that is wrong:

"50 mg/L of total ammonia-nitrogen"

and

"4 drops per gallon = 2 ppm ammonia-nitrogen"

his web site now says it is

Ammonium Chloride Solution 2oz bottle-DT-830

"the concentration is 40 mg/ml of total ammonia-nitrogen (TAN)."

 

[Mateusz]

I believe there is a critical typo in the directions posted.

These two things cannot possibly both be true, and it is certainly the first one that is wrong:

"50 mg/L of total ammonia-nitrogen"

and

"4 drops per gallon = 2 ppm ammonia-nitrogen"

his web site now says it is

Ammonium Chloride Solution 2oz bottle-DT-830

"the concentration is 40 mg/ml of total ammonia-nitrogen (TAN)."

Understood, did seem like very little. 50mg is prolly half a grain of rice .

What would the best ammonia test kit be?

 

[MnFish1]

I expect the concern is just faster conversion of ammonia to nitrate, than when these devices are not present.

Yes - I assumed this as well - but - I dont get why 'plastic' is an issue - as compared to - for example 'rock'

 

[drawman]

I can get ammonia chloride at the chemical store not far from my work today. Any idea how to calculate a dose?

I would hypothesize/imagine a low but constant dose would be the most effective. It would be nice if you could add some to your ATO container but not sure if that would just colonize with bacteria over time to convert it to nitrite then nitrate?

Just my assumption since SPS keepers generally agree that more fish (that are pooping, etc) are beneficial.

 

[Hans-Werner]

Can you elaborate on this - I dont understand the 'plastic' part? Thanks

Yes, sponges, trickle filters etc. speed up nitrification and reduce the availability of ammonium to corals.

I am not sure whether dosing ammonium in a separate tank helps much since the problems should be tank specific and not in some way connected to specific corals.

The mechanism is as follows: Under "normal" nutrient conditions, even when dosing nitrate, also phosphate and ammonium are present in a tank and nitrate is not a problem. Some of the nitrate may get assimilated by the corals but not exclusively. The oxidative stress caused by the assimilated nitrate can be compensated by the corals as long as ammonium and phosphate are available too. The latter support repair mechanisms in the corals to avoid and repair damages caused by the reactive oxygen species (ROS).

If there is an "absolute" nutrient deficit, ammonium and phosphate are below concentrations the corals can take up, only then nitrate gets really "toxic" and harmful, because then only nitrate can be assimilated and the repair mechanisms are out of order. This causes the burnt tips of SPS, at least according to my theory.

 

[Hans-Werner]

Yes - I assumed this as well - but - I dont get why 'plastic' is an issue - as compared to - for example 'rock'

It is not the plastic. Also when you put rock or coral gravel into a trickle filter or other place with high current you will have the same negative effect. The effect is mainly caused by large surface, relative speed of water to substrate, meaning very thin boundary layer, and rapid gas and nutrient exchange, supplying oxygen and ammonium at a high rate.

Under "normal tank conditions" you will never have the same currents and the thin boudary layers you find in filters etc..

 

[MnFish1]

It is not the plastic. Also when you put rock or coral gravel into a trickle filter or other place with high current you will have the same negative effect. The effect is mainly caused by large surface, relative speed of water to substrate, meaning very thin boundary layer, and rapid gas and nutrient exchange, supplying oxygen and ammonium at a high rate.

Under "normal tank conditions" you will never have the same currents and the thin boudary layers you find in filters etc..

thanks this makes sense