Thoughts on 300g seahorse pond

[rayjay]

Fortunately, I’ve not developed an allergy related to artemia as for decades I’ve cultured them large scale for my own use and for sale to local LFSs to resell to customers.

As for the Topanga Beach thing, I have NO knowledge of that whatsoever. I’m a Canadian, living in London Ontario, half way between Detroit and Toronto, surrounded by all the Great Lakes that makes humidity a worse problem than living on marine coast anywhere.

Unfortunately, much of the world has been compromised and will never return to what it was and we only have ourselves to blame for it.

To be honest with myself, while having some years of experience with seahorses in aquariums, I’m certainly not knowledgeable in ANY way with a pond/lagoon type scenario and don’t know if methodology that I’m familiar with would be of any value to your project. I CAN however, comment on some aspects FWIW.

I agree, from what I’ve read on your proposal that H. erectus would be best for you at this time if only for the facts that they produce benthic fry AND are the most readily available seahorse in most places in the US.

In Canada here we have LITTLE access to seahorses with the few available occasionally being imported from usually Asian countries. I imported my current species on my own some years ago from Australia because I couldn’t get any others. (abdominalis and barbouri)

Now based on my personal experience and that of others I’ve respected over the years, I believe that the two most important aspects of keeping seahorses in tanks is to deal with the nasty bacteria that kills so many, and to maintain/boost the immune systems of the seahorses.

With feeding, using appropriately sized food that is either enriched with a high DHA component or already has it’s own DHA goes a long way to maintain seahorse poor immune systems. (they cannot produce their own DHA even though their bodies need it)

Water quality is though a problem as there are NO test kits available in the hobby that will tell us when the water is degrading to the point the nasty bacteria (like vibrio species) will expand to plaque proportions negatively affecting our seahorses, internally as well as externally. The only solution I know of is to proactively maintain this quality, but the only way to know just how much maintenance and water changes are required, it takes experience as each individual setup will have its own needs. I’m down to two tanks now, but the 90g ab tank is FAR different than the 40g barb tank.

Now while I have some thoughts on the rest of your post, I’m too “wordy” in my writing for the forum so perhaps better for me to comment via e-mail. (ray.jayATsympatico.ca)

Two of my seahorse acquaintances who may have better thoughts on helping your project would be https://www.facebook.com/dan.underwood.9231 of Seahorse Source who started at the same time I did but carried it into a business. He has shared a lot of the research he has done with me and was very informative of much of my present protocols. For live foods, I recall he makes trips in his boat to estuaries to gather up supplemental live food to use along with the artemia for fry and may have suggestions on non artemia feeding for adult seahorses in your pond.

Also https://www.facebook.com/christopher.carey26 Chris Carey of Seahorse World Australia who makes appearances occasionally on our Wine Wednesdays with the Whisperer live on Wednesday nights. As their systems are large, he may also be able to contribute some suggestions.

If you want me to comment on the remaining parts, send me an e-mail and I will respond or if you prefer, I will post more on this site

 

[Henn]

Thanks for the response, your concerns have always been noted. There are questions about Regular Seahorses that are not answered without experience. Most of the early information about Dwarf Seahorses ( ponies ) was not accurate. The number of eggs has always been off ( 3 min 7 max births ). Right now your opinion has affirmed the choise of Hippocampus Erectus. They are available from my supplier occasionally. In the meantime the refugium is Plumping Up. It is already crawling with live food. The Molly Fish are being increased.

As too the disease concerns. There have been sick Ponies from injury or pathogen. They die. After trying different Dips and isolation, we stopped unnatural means. With 250 gallons a pond it is not possible to spot treat ( or feed ). There are specimens here from all over. They all brought stuff. If all that possible disaster had put me off, there would be nothing here. Before the Horses arrive, there are several important questions that only a raiser of Horses can answer. I am glad to have your input and need immediate guidance about Food Size ( not type or source ). There is 72 sq ft of tank wall to forage ( 18 ft around X 2 ft deep ) in addition to the 30 sq ft of Mesh Corral. All that is growing out right now.

Example: This is why the public information is not useful

1. On Wiki there has been an article about Dwarf Seahorses that confuses Pygmy and Dwarf and
claims that Dwarf Seahorses are the slowest fish,,, it is total nonsense. Even Erectus are not immune. One article claims that they are so slow it take 5 minutes to cross a bath tub. I can not believe that. It sounds like Pygmy Talk again from a Wiki Paster.

Meanwhile, there has never been a description of pony poop anywhere or a photo ( small brown loaf pops out at the belly button ). No one ever described a Dwarf Seahorse swimming up to a big co pod ( filled with eggs ) and jamming it in the side and sucking it's guts out. Leaving the now, distressed co pod in the same position, minus it's insides and eggs.

It is this kind of knowledge that is needed to supply what the Horses will need.

Prime concerns:

Can an Erectus Adult feed on new Molly Fry? If not, what should be Free Living in the Horse tank or Refugium? For instance: Can Mysis Shrimp be free living in a refugium within the tank?

PS: I have taken your suggestion and set up a 10 gallon display tank. There was enough Junk around here to open a Fish Store. The Ponds are full of great arrangements. They should Color Pop inside under LFS Lighting. With Phos levels at 0 it will be possible to play with some Hard Coral again. My advantage is that ever 3 days they rotate out to the pond so feeding in tank is no problem.

 

[rayjay]

I agree. Most public information is NO help most times as some much has changed over the last 20 yrs, especially the last ten.
The best place for information was the seahorse forums, mainly seahorse.org, but unfortunately they too were not always kept up to date, even now. However, while information was iffy at least you could post there and get real time up to date information. They also have a forum segment devoted to dwarf keeping and you could use the search feature to call up previous posts with information more specific to whatever you want information on.
While not perfect, it was better than now where people have gravitated to social media formats where you can't use a search feature. (at least if there is, I don't know how)
There is ONE source of info re social media and that is to click on the "FILES" on Seahorse Sources Group and Seahorse Solutions Group in Facebook. That info is current.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/SeahorseSolutions/files https://www.facebook.com/groups/Seahorsesource/files
I'd never even THINK of using something like Wiki for proper information. Even professional groups were a way out of date saying we couldn't do what we actually were doing. (like Amanda Vincent's Project Seahorse)
If you had been on the org over the last years you would have seen descriptions of seahorse fecal matter along with photos. It's not uncommon even today in social media posting.
For using mollies, the main problem is the same as using guppies, no DHA content unless they are gut loaded first with an appropriate enrichment. It's also debatable whether or not ALL seahorses will see them as food. Definitely some will but probably not all.
As to food size, not knowing off the top of my head the size of what I know they eat I can only use what I know to convey the size needed. (tiggers have been known to jump on the seahorses causing stress leading to failure of the immune system) For fry obviously anything the size of newborn artemia would be OK, and even a bit smaller if there are mass quantities available. The smaller the food the more needed to get sufficient nutrition.
For larger up to mature adults they love things amphipod sized up to some will take food the size of jumbo mysis shrimp. Dan Underwood would probably be able to give you names of pod forms that are in the estuaries where he used to get dwarfs from. If you could get mysid shrimp from someone that has a large reef and use them to seed the pond, the adults can help augment food for mature seahorses and the mysid nauplii can help feed seahorse fry.
You might also get some info from perusing FUSED JAW which was a great site until the owner experienced a life changing situation and ended up dropping the site. A lot of it has be captured though by web.archive.org and is at https://web.archive.org/web/20190116085832/https://fusedjaw.com/ not all links work but it still has some valuable input for what IS available.
Is there something about a pond setup that naturally takes care of dissolved organics? I ask because that is one thing that does increase the seahorse diseases by bacteria. In an aquarium, some use protein skimming and others use carbon with a few like me, using larger more frequent water changes. For me water changes are cheap as I use my own salt water mix that I mix 50/50 with Instant Ocean which is the cheapest salt available to me.
Now for seahorse fry (standards), I don't know how you can accomplish this as the numbers are mind boggling compared to dwarf fry. The MOST dwarf fry I ever had from one male was 11, but the most common average was 3-5.
With erectus, you are looking at around 200 fry every 17 days when they first start producing, up to in excess of 800 for mature males. Of course too, the more pairs you have in there, the more fry that will come.
Lastly, it's probably my age and having MCI but I haven't been able to wrap my head around the 10g display as to how you want to use it and what you will put in it.

 

[Henn]

Already your information has been helpful. The fact that the Ponies are growing through all stages of life and reproducing may mean that they are getting the gut loaded equivalent of what they need. The Erectus pond has the same natural diet. I was not aware that guppies were used ( they are fresh and not compatible ). The birth rate of the Mollies is very fast and they also clean. About Fusedjaw, it was a great help for moral support. The 2 year Brine Shrimp adventure here was started by an appeal on Fusedjaw for a simpler method. It was only after 2 years of failure that I went back to report my attempts to Fusedjaw and found it Totally Gone.

About the Protein in the ponds, there is none. All water exchanges are through the industrial strength Protein Scimmer. On full blast, it dumps about 15 gallons in 24 hours ( normally set for several gallons a day. It has 40 lbs of Brick Chips incorporated to simulate the sound of breaking waves. It does not filter larva but can stimulate them to land. There is a picture of the Protein Scimmer in my threads. The lid is off. Sometimes there is a Foam plug sticking up several inches. It can't be good stuff. The Protein Scimmer also has to remove pollen that falls in from the trees around here.

Your news that adults can eat Fish Fry is very encouraging. There are Banana Boats ( bananas with Flightless Fruit Flies ) floating in the ponds. They have draped fabric covers that force the flies into the water. My Ponies are still learning to feed from the surface but the fish love them and the drown ones are just detritus food. Bananas are cheap and the flies are self sustaining. That is the name of the game here.

The number of Mated Pairs >> Unless you feel otherwise, it would seem that one Mated Pair is all that is needed. They will be wild caught and the supplier recommends feeding them a supplement food immediately. The plan is to put them in the 28 cu ft refugium that is now crawling with little critters. Your opinion is again needed about the refugium depth. It is only about 18 inches deep because it hangs in. If the depth is OK short term, the plan is to move them to the main tank volume after they have Fry. I decided not to put any Ponies in this Unit. The Erectus Fry will have the whole refugium and mesh walls. The parents will have around 72 sq ft of tank wall ( grown over ) and the outer surface of the refugium. The sole food used here is dry ground Red Shrimp. It supplies all the extra. About 3 tbs a day of glop per pond. This has been going on 5 years and the pond stuff appears OK and the Ponies are healthy. I use only Instant Ocean and an dedicated RO System.

The 10 gallon system is no mystery. The Reef2Reef community is very Tank and UV Light Centrist. I scaled down the Pond System with OTS Filter parts and a Protein Scimmer. I can showcase any of my Pond Critters or Frag Center pieces for display with Frag Store Lighting ( just for me if nothing else ). All my Pond pieces are from quality Shops and have great POP under blue light. As the mood suits the tank can display any number of nice pieces from the pond. The Phos level is too high for Green Duncan ( love them ) or stag horn in the ponds. In the tank they will do fine and look great. It is great to see a good seascape. It is even better when the Frag Shop is in the back yard.

Thanks again for clearing up the real details of Erectus life. It is almost impossible to find real content. I despise all Social Media as an STD. Famous Social Media Type Quote:
I have been cycling my tank for 6 weeks, when do I add the salt? This quote is real and almost caused me to to request Excommunication from the Human Race.

 

[Damian reef boi]

Very nice thread I am planing to put sea horses in one of my empty tanks which sea horse do you guys recommend starting with? I was thinking erectus I really want dwarf seahorses though but I know maintaining is harder for them lil bois

 

[rayjay]

Henn, I keep forgetting to tell you that your use of PONY for dwarfs doesn't transition to posts that talk about standards as more and more people in the last few years are calling their standards PONY instead of seahorse. I think they may be lazy and saving their thumbs from having to type out more letters for the seahorse word.
Mollies are not a natural marine fish but some varieties can be transitioned to salt. The same can be done with guppies as I used to do it decades ago. I mentioned that some seahorses will eat fish fry, but qualified it by saying not all would be likely to.
You mentioned starting with just a pair of erectus, but if your method works well, it might only be 6 months or so before new fry have sexually matured and produce more fry.
Depth is a thing that aids in mating and egg transfer as they perform while swimming upwards. While I've seen a few varying recommendations from 18" to 22" min. I had a pair in a 40g breeder and they still manage somehow to produce fry.
Thanks for enlarging upon the 10g tank display.
In any case, it appears you have put a LOT of thought into this project so I'm hoping that things will really turn out for you.
Unfortunately I don't think my years of tank knowledge are really going to help you at all as it's my thought that the whole processes is so different.
Keep us posted on your progress.
Hopefully though you won't mind if I still post something that I feel is NOT conducive to success in keeping seahorses in tanks. It's the seahorses I'm concerned about, not the individual members making the posts.

 

[rayjay]

Very nice thread I am planing to put sea horses in one of my empty tanks which sea horse do you guys recommend starting with? I was thinking erectus I really want dwarf seahorses though but I know maintaining is harder for them lil bois

A great place to start is to read through the "stickies" found at the top of this forum. It is a LOT of reading but there is also a LOT of good information there.
In the US, erectus are the most commonly available seahorse and produce easier to raise benthic fry. Minimum 30g for a pair of erectus, more volume is better. Number one seahorse problem is having weak immune systems making them REALLY susceptible to bacterial disease caused by poor water quality. None of the available tests will tell you when that water is become good for nasty bacteria and bad for seahorses so preventative maintenance is needed. Keeping the tank in the range of 68-74°F helps keep the bacteria at bay as they multiply exponentially with each rising degree, but especially above 74°. (exponentially means like Arizona's rising covid line) A skimmer rated for more than 3-4 times actual tank volume is a big aid in maintaining that water quality as it removes the dissolved organics that are degrading water quality.

 

[rayjay]

Damian, with regards to dwarf keeping, IMO it IS more challenging than keeping standards in tanks, but Henn's pond method is definitely an interesting way to keep them although not practical for someone like me. There are a lot of recent posts where he shows his setup and explains it.
Another one that is really interesting but not in my price range I would spend for dwarfs but has taken a LOT of thought to develop and that is Jerry Gunn's method that you can see here: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/automated-dwarf-seahorse-aquarium.725709/

 

[Damian reef boi]

Very ninoice

 

[Henn]

Very nice thread I am planing to put sea horses in one of my empty tanks which sea horse do you guys recommend starting with? I was thinking erectus I really want dwarf seahorses though but I know maintaining is harder for them lil bois

Please follow my Reef Tank Build. It will show how to build a small tank version of my Dwarf Breeding System. I am still trying to get this Forum Format. The Marine System outlined is not like any that has been shown before. It repurposed two fresh water foam filters into a complete Marine Filter System. There is a new Marine Pond here that will just support Hippocampus Erectus. All the ponds here both fresh ( shrimp breeder ) and the Marine Ponds all use this simple system. Maybe seeing how it scales down to Reef Tanks will get someone else to build one.