To phosphate or not to phosphate

[McCarrick]

Hey all,
Whats the deal with phosphates? I often read posts about how to get phosphates to go down but then the very next thread will be about dosing phosphates. It was my understanding that phosphates should be 0 ppm. I thought that algae fed off of phosphates, but I've also been reading that if you have cyano you should raise your phosphates. So the question is, what should phosphates actually be in a healthy reef and when should you worry about raising your phosphates? Those of you who dose phosphates, what are you using and why are you dosing?

 

[Biglew11]

all living things require nutrients (phosphates and nitrates). If phosphates and or nitrates are absolutely 0 then things will suffer. Phosphates should be around .05 to .1 ppm nitrates around 5 to 10 ppm. People lower these nutrients when they get to high and dose them if they get to low.

 

[CCauthers]

all living things require nutrients (phosphates and nitrates). If phosphates and or nitrates are absolutely 0 then things will suffer. Phosphates should be around .05 to .1 ppm nitrates around 5 to 10 ppm. People lower these nutrients when they get to high and dose them if they get to low.

Well said. The exact level can depend on what corals you want to keep, but you definitely want them to be detectable.

 

[McCarrick]

How do you raise your phosphates? I've read to just feed the tank more, but I dont want my other levels going up. I have one coral in my new tank that survived my old tank crash. I'm struggling a lot with green cyano and a little gha. My phosphates are reading 0 and were always 0 in my last tank. Which was successful until I moved and it crashed in the process.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It was my understanding that phosphates should be 0 ppm.

That is not correct. 0.000 ppm phosphate would be very bad.

I generally recommend 0.02 to 0.1 ppm phosphate, which is why folks who are naturally lower dose, and why folks who are higher try to lower it.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

How do you raise your phosphates? I've read to just feed the tank more, but I dont want my other levels going up. I have one coral in my new tank that survived my old tank crash. I'm struggling a lot with green cyano and a little gha. My phosphates are reading 0 and were always 0 in my last tank. Which was successful until I moved and it crashed in the process.

You can dose sodium or potassium phosphate. There are many threads on the food grade products to use, and for dosing directions using a calculator like this one:

James' Planted Tank - Dosing Calculator

 

[ReefPig]

It baffles me that even today, people still think achieving zero PO4 and NO4 is “what good looks like”. Not sure where this myth started, and indeed what even keeping the idea being fuelled.

You’re not in your own though, this comes up all the time, despite hundreds of articles, and thousands of threads giving advice on the levels to target, and why.

Having some micro algae in your tank is unavoidable, and indeed it’s a good thing. Some fish and inverts need it to survive. inverts particularly, they can’t just lick the rocks for nutrients.

No nutrients, no corals.
IMO the days of ULNS are numbers (FYI even ULNS was not zero), but slightly elevated numbers, as Randy suggested, are good for corals.

Granted though, it’s a tightrope of balance, and you need to test and adjust. Too high = slowly reduce, too low = slowly increase.

(the key word here is slowly!!)

Lots of extra food just introduces extra organics, so dosing is a good way to safely, and in a controlled way, increase nutrients, particularly useful in larger tanks.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It baffles me that even today, people still think achieving zero PO4 and NO4 is “what good looks like”. Not sure where this myth started, and indeed what even keeping the idea being fuelled.

I can certainly answer that.

Natural levels in the surface ocean waters are undetectable with most hobby kits, hence the goal of trying to mimic the ocean leads to trying to keep very low levels.

For many years, such levels were not easily attained, and it was only after fairly large numbers of folks began to attain very low levels that problems like dinos or pale corals really became apparent.

 

[ReefPig]

I can certainly answer that.

Natural levels in the surface ocean waters are undetectable with most hobby kits, hence the goal of trying to mimic the ocean leads to trying to keep very low levels.

For many years, such levels were not easily attained, and it was only after fairly large numbers of folks began to attain very low levels that problems like dinos or pale corals really became apparent.

Granted that water 1 mile off the UK is not exactly the great barrier reef, but I get NSW delivered every two weeks and use this for water changes.

I get dKH ~7, NO3 ~2-3, PO4 ~0.02.
All other params are reasonably close to targets which Triton use (just very slightly under), such as Ca ~425 instead of 440 etc.

I just think people don't research well enough is the fundamental issue, despite a wealth of info at their finger tips.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Granted that water 1 mile off the UK is not exactly the great barrier reef, but I get NSW delivered every two weeks and use this for water changes.

I get dKH ~7, NO3 ~2-3, PO4 ~0.02.
All other params are reasonably close to targets which Triton use (just very slightly under), such as Ca ~425 instead of 440 etc.

I just think people don't research well enough is the fundamental issue, despite a wealth of info at their finger tips.

Surface waters are often lower, but note that 0.02 ppm phosphate was indistinguishable by hobbyists from 0.00 ppm in the 1990's. Nitrate at less than 1 ppm (normal for unpolluted surface seawater, which is often much lower) was also indistinguishable from 0 ppm.

 

[ReefPig]

Surface waters are often lower, but note that 0.02 ppm phosphate was indistinguishable by hobbyists from 0.00 ppm in the 1990's. Nitrate at less than 1 ppm (normal for unpolluted surface seawater, which is often much lower) was also indistinguishable from 0 ppm.

Ahh I see what you mean!
Yup, makes sense.

 

[McCarrick]

All really great info! Maybe I got my info just from the wrong people. I had algae and was told to get my phosphates down to 0, and they were, and was then led to believe 0 Is always best. Then was reading that phosphates and nitrates should be in balance with each other. I had an explosion once of gha after trying some nitrate removing media. I think also it comes from knowing what you need to know. Just sort of reading around and seeing lots of people either saying their PO4 is at 0 or .01 makes it feel like any phosphate isnt a good thing. It is more than likely that my phosphates are above 0 and may be .01 but with my API test kit it is indistinguishable. If I was still living in california I would probably also use natural sea water but in Wyoming that's not an option. Could be that I will have to dose. I also have hardly anything in my tank at the moment, I have a build thread going anyone is interested in seeing it. What are you all using to test? I know there are far better choices for testers than API but as a college student, it's a little tricky to get my hands on the more expensive things.

 

[Bobblehead]

Please make sure you buy the proper grade of chemical! I recently had a bit of a disaster dosing potassium phosphate along with calcium nitrate. My dosing may have been too quick as I reached my target of .03 and 4 in a few days. This is from barely detectable levels. Other than that, the only other issue it could have been was the purity of ingredients even though I bought my stuff from an aquarium supply store. Another one of my acros just started peeling this morning...

 

[ReefBeta]

All really great info! Maybe I got my info just from the wrong people. I had algae and was told to get my phosphates down to 0, and they were, and was then led to believe 0 Is always best. Then was reading that phosphates and nitrates should be in balance with each other. I had an explosion once of gha after trying some nitrate removing media. I think also it comes from knowing what you need to know. Just sort of reading around and seeing lots of people either saying their PO4 is at 0 or .01 makes it feel like any phosphate isnt a good thing. It is more than likely that my phosphates are above 0 and may be .01 but with my API test kit it is indistinguishable. If I was still living in california I would probably also use natural sea water but in Wyoming that's not an option. Could be that I will have to dose. I also have hardly anything in my tank at the moment, I have a build thread going anyone is interested in seeing it. What are you all using to test? I know there are far better choices for testers than API but as a college student, it's a little tricky to get my hands on the more expensive things.

Hanna checker for ultra low phosphate is basically a must have. Try get one during the coming black friday sales.

When it tests with lower than 0.01, or even actually 0, it's when to consider dosing some phosphate, especially when nitrate is high. My tank had phosphate at 0 and nitrate at 20, and plenty of dino. I started dosing phosphate to keep it at 0.03, to fix the imbalance. Now nitrate is dropping back to under 10, and after phosphate remain 0.03 without continue dosing. Dino are almost gone now.

 

[ReefPig]

Right now my PO4 is a tad on the high side, but I’m not worried at all, currently sitting at 0.1ppm

I’m playing around with dosing phosphates and lanthanum chloride, to find a balance somewhere.

For a long time I was running at 0.02, but I find that 0.02 being such a low number, it’s so easily bottomed out in a flash, which is really bad, for me it caused dinos when it bottomed out about six months back, and they still haven’t fully gone, maybe 95% clear.

My goal is to target 0.05 going forward.

If you find you have GHA growing, get yourself an urchin (or other inverts) job done. Get them to do the donkey work, rather than you trying to do it from a nutrient perspective.

 

[McCarrick]

Hanna checker for ultra low phosphate is basically a must have. Try get one during the coming black friday sales.

When it tests with lower than 0.01, or even actually 0, it's when to consider dosing some phosphate, especially when nitrate is high. My tank had phosphate at 0 and nitrate at 20, and plenty of dino. I started dosing phosphate to keep it at 0.03, to fix the imbalance. Now nitrate is dropping back to under 10, and after phosphate remain 0.03 without continue dosing. Dino are almost gone now.

I'm going to check my params right now. I had 0 across the board but maybe itll be different today. And then I will find what I need to bring up my phosphates

 

[McCarrick]

Right now my PO4 is a tad on the high side, but I’m not worried at all, currently sitting at 0.1ppm

I’m playing around with dosing phosphates and lanthanum chloride, to find a balance somewhere.

For a long time I was running at 0.02, but I find that 0.02 being such a low number, it’s so easily bottomed out in a flash, which is really bad, for me it caused dinos when it bottomed out about six months back, and they still haven’t fully gone, maybe 95% clear.

My goal is to target 0.05 going forward.

If you find you have GHA growing, get yourself an urchin (or other inverts) job done. Get them to do the donkey work, rather than you trying to do it from a nutrient perspective.

I saw a small red tux urchin at the store last week and I've been thinking about it all week. Its definitely on my list. My cuc definitely needs to be more heavy. I buy a few every time I go but it's still a slow process for me. Currently have 1 zebra hermit, 1 chestnut cowrie, 2 peppermint shrimp. Only fish I have is a black ray goby. I had my last tank up for about 4 years and now I'm trying to do it better this time around so a lot more reading and talking to people.

 

[User1]

I generally recommend 0.02 to 0.1 ppm phosphate, which is why folks who are naturally lower dose, and why folks who are higher try to lower it.

And is there a recommended Nitrate? Just wondering how they are in relationship or if it matters. Only reason why I'm asking is because my Nyos nitrate kit was consistently reading 0 so even if it was not measuring correctly or I was doing something wrong it was consistent so dosed Loudwolfs sodium nitrate and now it is measuring 5 ppm which is good.

Phosphates at the time are .06 but after the dosing went up to .17 interesting enough.

 

[ReefBeta]

I'm going to check my params right now. I had 0 across the board but maybe itll be different today. And then I will find what I need to bring up my phosphates

If both nitrate and phosphate are 0. I'll increase feeding first. Dosing is most useful to fix imbalance.

 

[McCarrick]

If both nitrate and phosphate are 0. I'll increase feeding first. Dosing is most useful to fix imbalance.

I took a look at my phosphate test kit. It measures 0ppm and then the second level itll measure is .25. Also nitrates will measure no lower than .5

I'm looking around a bit on ebay to hopefully find a used one