Treatment Protocol for Sick Anemones

davocean

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What are your collective thoughts on prophylactic cipro treatment on h. magnifica and/or m. Doreensis? I've had one riterri and a few LTAs decline and die on me 2-3 weeks after purchase with all my water params looking good, adequate lighting and flow, to where the only explanation I can think of is unidentified disease or questionable collection practices. I've got a healthy looking ritteri in QT right now, under observation debating whether or not to proactively treat with cipro or hold off as long as it doesn't start declining.
Just to be clear, Ritteri and mag are the same, magnifica being the scientific and more appropriate ID.
Most of us do not treat unless we see obvious signs of needing it, primarily deflation of tentacles, but QT and observation should always be done.
There could be a number of reasons why your other nems declined, even just a newish tank(less than 6 mo) could be an issue, normally not stable enough quite yet, high nitrates can be an issue as well, hard to say not knowing all about your tank and setup.
 
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davocean

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This is an awesome thread and I read Minh's on RC as well. It makes me want to plan to build a totally anemone specific system with the 90 gallon I just resealed this winter. I have a 400 gallon system for SPS primarily so for you anemone experts out there do you recommend me to plumb the anemone tank into the same system or keep it separate? Also any suggestions on how to spec out a tank for a Ritteri/Magnifica and other anemones I can keep with it? I've had RBTA and LTs in the past fairly successfully but they decided to move on me after 8 years in the same spot and they got sucked up in powerheads :( so I never got any anemones anymore and focused purely on acros.

Many will cover PH's for this reason.
For mags I just make a pillar high up so they can get max light, and as long as tents do not touch glass or anything that makes easy to walk higher, and water is stable, fairly good flow, they usually do not wander.
You could plumb the 2 tanks, just know that it does make the other tank vulnerable to being nuked or suffering should there ever be an issue.
 

davocean

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Thank you to the OP for making this thread. Very informative and inspiring. I have a couple of questions. You've stated that 50 percent water should be done daily. After the 50 percent water is done, how much of the Cipro should be added. 250 mg or half of that.
Another person responded on the thread that he does a 100 percent water change. Will that be better?
Thanks again for your help.
Light makes cipro inert, so this is why we say add it at night, so regardless of WC amount the dosage will remain the same.
100% WC is best, and I do this using tank water from display and incorporate this w/ my WC's in display.
 
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Enm89

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So i was thinking, I have seen great result on medicating the food I give to my fish. treating from the inside as opposed to treating from the water column. I was wondering has anyone ever tried medicating a mag using food with some cipro on it? if so could you share your experiences?
 
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Taylor t

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So i was thinking, I have seen great result on medicating the food I give to my fish. treating from the inside as opposed to treating from the water column. I was wondering has anyone ever tried medicating a mag using food with some cipro on it? if so could you share your experiences?
I don’t think this would work well with anemones, and may end up killing them instead of helping.
Trying to get an anemone to eat when sick, not always possible.
The medication is toxic in high doses. That would put a high concentration in a very localized area.
The dose 250mg/10 gallons has a specific concentration and gets to most of the anemone, they are bags of water.
They don’t have a bloodstream to carry meds to deliver through the body like a mammal. Adding it to food could kill it from inside out. AND, the water changes are more important, they need to purge the water inside them. It’s time consuming and a lot of work to rehab anemones, well.
 

Enm89

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I don’t think this would work well with anemones, and may end up killing them instead of helping.
Trying to get an anemone to eat when sick, not always possible.
The medication is toxic in high doses. That would put a high concentration in a very localized area.
The dose 250mg/10 gallons has a specific concentration and gets to most of the anemone, they are bags of water.
They don’t have a bloodstream to carry meds to deliver through the body like a mammal. Adding it to food could kill it from inside out. AND, the water changes are more important, they need to purge the water inside them. It’s time consuming and a lot of work to rehab anemones, well.
That sounds very logical I will do the protocol like it's instructed. thanks
 

angela223

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hey, is human cipro inert in light as well? it was the only ones i can get my hands one since theres none for fish here in au stralia. becus if its not inert then ill be overdosing right?
 

cromag27

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cipro has never been scientifically proven to anything for anemones. sigh.
 

davocean

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cipro has never been scientifically proven to anything for anemones. sigh.
I'm not sure what you mean by scientifically proven, but I know for most of my years in this hobby focusing mainly on anemone's and clowns it used to be pretty much impossible to keep mags, gigs, and now w/ the use of cipro that has changed dramatically, and so has the keeping of clowns w/ their natural hosts as found in the wild.
It's been a pretty big game changer for clown/anemone keepers.
 
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cromag27

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I'm not sure what you mean by scientifically proven, but I know for most of my years in this hobby focusing mainly on anemone's and clowns it used to be pretty much impossible to keep mags, gigs, and now w/ the use of cipro that has changed dramatically, and so has the keeping of clowns w/ their natural hosts as found in the wild.
It's been a pretty big game changer for clown/anemone keepers.

deductive logic isn’t always the same as scientific fact. i’ve spoken to two MDs and one DVM about the use of cipro specifically for anemones and the conclusion was that it likely does nothing as a treatment for existing issues or as a prophylactic measurement. cipro has other uses for fish and other animals but the conclusion was that there is a very very slim chance it does anything for anemones.

i have been meaning to write a more in depth article on my many years of study with anemones but have no time for it unfortunately.

however, this is just how i choose to operate - based on science. if people want to spend the time and money using cipro then have at it! but if your anemone is healthy after using cipro, it’s not accurate to believe cipro helped at all. still no scientific proof...... yet.
 

davocean

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deductive logic isn’t always the same as scientific fact. i’ve spoken to two MDs and one DVM about the use of cipro specifically for anemones and the conclusion was that it likely does nothing as a treatment for existing issues or as a prophylactic measurement. cipro has other uses for fish and other animals but the conclusion was that there is a very very slim chance it does anything for anemones.

i have been meaning to write a more in depth article on my many years of study with anemones but have no time for it unfortunately.

however, this is just how i choose to operate - based on science. if people want to spend the time and money using cipro then have at it! but if your anemone is healthy after using cipro, it’s not accurate to believe cipro helped at all. still no scientific proof...... yet.
Well, I may be new to this particular site, but I've spent 13 years on that other site primarily in the nem forum, and over those years I have seen countless mags and gigs that were obviously at deaths door that recovered completely from the bacterial infection they are known for, which has in the past resulted in quick death.

Since then I've used cipro on a number of mags myself, and the results have been nothing short of impressive IMO

If I had to guess a number I'd say at least 80% of newly shipped mags will come w/ bacterial infections, and and now it's become a common practice to treat those w/ cipro, and if following the protocol properly it almost always seems to work, and now suddenly we are able to keep these anemone's successfully.

There's been many years of photo documentation of this, I think it's hard to argue whether it works or not from my observations.

This facet of our hobby has made leaps and bounds in recent years, and now we are also seeing the results of a much greater hosting response due to being able to finally offer our ocellaris and percula's the natural hosts they would be found in the wild, mags and gigs, which results in immediate hosting.

It's really made a dramatic change and increased awareness among anemone and clown keepers.
 

cromag27

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Well, I may be new to this particular site, but I've spent 13 years on that other site primarily in the nem forum, and over those years I have seen countless mags and gigs that were obviously at deaths door that recovered completely from the bacterial infection they are known for, which has in the past resulted in quick death.

Since then I've used cipro on a number of mags myself, and the results have been nothing short of impressive IMO

If I had to guess a number I'd say at least 80% of newly shipped mags will come w/ bacterial infections, and and now it's become a common practice to treat those w/ cipro, and if following the protocol properly it almost always seems to work, and now suddenly we are able to keep these anemone's successfully.

There's been many years of photo documentation of this, I think it's hard to argue whether it works or not from my observations.

This facet of our hobby has made leaps and bounds in recent years, and now we are also seeing the results of a much greater hosting response due to being able to finally offer our ocellaris and percula's the natural hosts they would be found in the wild, mags and gigs, which results in immediate hosting.

It's really made a dramatic change and increased awareness among anemone and clown keepers.
for sure!! many years ago i used to buy ugly carpets from petco and use cipro to get them healthy looking. i’m not saying cipro does nothing - fact is, we don’t know for sure as of yet because science is lacking in this area. i wish we knew more about anemones in general.
 

cromag27

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my next step is to speak with a marine biologist and hear what they have to say. probably more of the same........ “don’t know.” lol.
 

davocean

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for sure!! many years ago i used to buy ugly carpets from petco and use cipro to get them healthy looking. i’m not saying cipro does nothing - fact is, we don’t know for sure as of yet because science is lacking in this area. i wish we knew more about anemones in general.
Some understand HOW it works better than I or better than I could explain, Minh/Orion and Amoo probably are better at understanding or explaining the science end of it, I'm just going based on years of observations myself.
It's actually pretty exciting to me, these nems were once the holy grail for us nem keepers, and now I see many people just getting into the hobby that suddenly seem to have no problem keeping these nems, and LFS I've dealt w/ that used to flat out refuse ordering them claiming they all die are now on board, and now they are much easier to come by, so it's made a pretty big and obvious change from what I've seen over the years.

I used to be afraid to even try a mag, even a seemingly healthy one, now days I'll see one at an LFS knowing just looking at it showing obvious deflation and signs of bacterial infection, and I have no hesitation in purchasing as long as I've got cipro and qt tank ready to set up for it.
 
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davocean

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my next step is to speak with a marine biologist and hear what they have to say. probably more of the same........ “don’t know.” lol.
Lol, yeah, anemone's are still very misunderstood and not a lot of LFS or hobbiests are very informed about them, and probably because it would take observing them over their lifetime beginning to end, and being an underwater animal that lives 50-100 years or maybe even more it's obviously not been likely to study in natural habitat it's full lifetime.

I myself would like to understand the how and why it works better, but in the meantime I'm happy knowing it just works
 

OrionN

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for sure!! many years ago i used to buy ugly carpets from petco and use cipro to get them healthy looking. i’m not saying cipro does nothing - fact is, we don’t know for sure as of yet because science is lacking in this area. i wish we knew more about anemones in general.
For sure Cipro isn't going to do anything for ugly carpets. If you are trying to use Cipro to change ugly carpet to nice colorful carpet, no wonder you think that Cipro did nothing.
Before using reefers using antibiotics for treatment of sick anemones become widespread, the number of people who are successfully keep Gigantea in the US long term can be count on one hand. I know because I essentially corresponded to virtually all of them. I did not count the number of reefers from out of the US, mainly because the problem I feel was due to anemone got sick after prolong shipping.
Anyway, after reefers started to use various antibiotics to treat anemones, the numbers of Gigantea living in captivity increased by many thousand fold. Just because we don't have clinical trials, does not mean the treatment does not do anything. Just like there is no trial regarding SPS need to be keep under light, does not mean that the observation that SPS needed light is incorrect. Or that SPS need periord of darkness or else the will bleached and died (many reefers does not know this).
By the way I am a medial doctor by training. I did a lot of clinical trials, on human, though out my training.
 
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