Tropic Marin All for Reef

[SunnyX]

AFR works great in my systems. 150ML per day on this 170GL total volume system pictured below. I am going on I believe year six of using AFR on multiple systems with zero issues and great coral growth and health.

In the summer months I will supplement the systems with Kalkwasser, but only to bump up PH. I have always been a big fan of Kalkwasser, and do recommend it.

As for AFR, as others have noted, it is not cheap and there are more cost effective methods out there. However, I have tried it all over the years and AFR, with its foolproof simplicity is my choice. Its especially a good formulation for beginners.

Funds not prohibiting, I don't see a reason to use anything else in a <200GL.

 

[exnisstech]

AFR works great in my systems. 150ML per day on this 170GL total volume system pictured below. I am going on I believe year six of using AFR on multiple systems with zero issues and great coral growth and health.

In the summer months I will supplement the systems with Kalkwasser, but only to bump up PH. I have always been a big fan of Kalkwasser, and do recommend it.

As for AFR, as others have noted, it is not cheap and there are more cost effective methods out there. However, I have tried it all over the years and AFR, with its foolproof simplicity is my choice. Its especially a good formulation for beginners.

Funds not prohibiting, I don't see a reason to use anything else in a <200GL.

I hate seeing your tanks. It makes me feel like such a failure

 

[Freenow54]

Has anyone used this product before? It seems to be an easier way to dose elements.

HelloYes, I used this product for over a year. Now I've switched to OCEAMO. I have a 500-liter mixed reef. Adjusting imbalances (KH, magnesium, etc.) is almost impossible with just one product. I think it could work well for a small nano tank.Best regards from Switzerland

So what have you noticed as to improvements? I use the 2 part but have recently bought this product yet to use it I use K+ and A- so far

 

[Reign1]

I was about to jump in on the "very high" cost in the table but the response does show your methods to get to those #s. By getting the powder it does lower cost and I would even say may make cost high.
As it goes I use Kalk and AFR and have been very happy with this combo and the AFR lasts quite a bit of time so far.
Perhaps a cost analysis comparing additives that cover ALK, Ca, and trace elements.

 

[ingchr1]

My calculations showed that AFR costs more than a DIY two part using ingredients from BRS, and is even cheaper full diy. I haven’t tried to work through yours to see why they differ.

That said, AFR is a fine choice that I also use.

It doesn't look like your DIY using BRS ingredients includes the A- and K+ elements. What's the comparison if those are included?

I'm currently adding 200ml of each per gallon. For me that adds $14 to the overall cost. The elements cost $35 per liter.

 

[SunnyX]

One thing to note is that I believe all three big pet retailers(Chewy, Petco, Petsmart) sell AFR, or at least have at some point. They routinely offer up coupons and if timed correctly you never have to pay retail. The same goes for Bulk Reef. They will have deals and sales, typically 15-20% off. During those times, I will stock up for the year.

 

[areefer01]

One thing to note is that I believe all three big pet retailers(Chewy, Petco, Petsmart) sell AFR, or at least have at some point. They routinely offer up coupons and if timed correctly you never have to pay retail. The same goes for Bulk Reef. They will have deals and sales, typically 15-20% off. During those times, I will stock up for the year.

There is also a rumored 5 gallon bucket of AFR but I have not been able to source it yet. Depending on that cost and how the product stays over time may lower it even further. I doubt this would be a good fit for average users but for those of us pushing the total dose per day it may.

In the mean time I shoot Tropic Marin a email every three of four months asking for a larger than 1600 g offering. Doesn't hurt to ask :D

 

[SunnyX]

There is also a rumored 5 gallon bucket of AFR but I have not been able to source it yet. Depending on that cost and how the product stays over time may lower it even further. I doubt this would be a good fit for average users but for those of us pushing the total dose per day it may.

In the mean time I shoot Tropic Marin a email every three of four months asking for a larger than 1600 g offering. Doesn't hurt to ask :D

I did speak with Lou at Tropic Marin and there is no cost savings going to a 5 gal bucket. The size is simply made for ease of use and storage for larger operations.

 

[Reign1]

One thing to note is that I believe all three big pet retailers(Chewy, Petco, Petsmart) sell AFR, or at least have at some point. They routinely offer up coupons and if timed correctly you never have to pay retail. The same goes for Bulk Reef. They will have deals and sales, typically 15-20% off. During those times, I will stock up for the year.

Yes, I bought mine on Amazon

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

The calculation you used for AFR is 1 L for 37 USD. As noted above the price per liter drops when one uses the powder. You rightly noted the product form used but the chart is also using "dry" components and there is little effort for the hobbyist to convert the powder to liquid and lower the cost.

It may not change your graph but as I read it the graph is a bit misleading. Not your intent I know.

OK, let's look again, as I have multiple times when folks complain about AFR cost comparisons not looking like they want them to.

All supplements cost less if you buy more at once. Yes, the powder is less expensive, but still more than the carbo calcium powder I also listed.

From BRS:

1600 grams, makes 10 l or 10,000 mL, costs $75.04

To boost 100 gallons by 2 dKH (the cost comparison in the article) takes approximately 126 mL of AFR liquid.

Thus, 10,000 mL will last for about 79 doses.

That puts the cost at $0.95 per dose.

That is STILL HIGHER than every other entry in my table except ESV-B-ionic (which rated the next lower category) and IF you purchase a larger amount of ESV, the cost is lower, such as the 4 gallon of each part for $109, making it cost 30% less. Thus it too will cost less than AFR powder.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I was about to jump in on the "very high" cost in the table but the response does show your methods to get to those #s. By getting the powder it does lower cost and I would even say may make cost high.
As it goes I use Kalk and AFR and have been very happy with this combo and the AFR lasts quite a bit of time so far.
Perhaps a cost analysis comparing additives that cover ALK, Ca, and trace elements.

Of course it depends on how much A and K you chose to use (if any).

Plenty of folks do not use trace supplements, use less (or more), or DIY ( very inexpensive) or use other brands.

But it certainly is true that if you want to add the same trace elements as in AFR via TM A and K, at a rate of 200 mL per gallon, it will end up adding about $0.52 total cost to the values in my table. That brings up the cost of some of the other methods, but only the name brands ESV and Tropic Marin two/three parts become similar to or more expensive than AFR. THe other methods cost substantially less.

I think too that one should be careful to recognize all of the pros and cons of various methods. Cost is not the only limitation of AFR. pH and potentially needing other supplements long term also figure in to the AFR discussion.

Again, I use AFR. But it is not the best choice in all settings.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Yes, I bought mine on Amazon

To be fair, I choose all of the cost comparisons from one retailer (if possible). nearly all of them can be obtained at lower cost if buying larger quantities, buying them on sale, etc. That does not just apply to AFR.

 

[areefer01]

OK, let's look again, as I have multiple times when folks complain about AFR cost comparisons not looking like they want them to.

All supplements cost less if you buy more at once. Yes, the powder is less expensive, but still more than the carbo calcium powder I also listed.

From BRS:

1600 grams, makes 10 l or 10,000 mL, costs $75.04

To boost 100 gallons by 2 dKH (the cost comparison in the article) takes approximately 126 mL of AFR liquid.

Thus, 10,000 mL will last for about 79 doses.

That puts the cost at $0.95 per dose.

That is STILL HIGHER than every other entry in my table except ESV-B-ionic (which rated the next lower category) and IF you purchase a larger amount of ESV, the cost is lower, such as the 4 gallon of each part for $109, making it cost 30% less. Thus it too will cost less than ESV powder.

This is all well and good but it doesn't change the fact you are using the product in its most expensive form. Using the powder changes the price per liter was my only comment. Not that your conclusion is wrong.

Dose that make a difference in your graph when viewed by others? I don't know. Don't fret over it - just my opinion as I read it.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

This is all well and good but it doesn't change the fact you are using the product in its most expensive form. Using the powder changes the price per liter was my only comment. Not that your conclusion is wrong.

Dose that make a difference in your graph when viewed by others? I don't know. Don't fret over it - just my opinion as I read it.

Ok, I understand your concern and have addressed it here as I had done in other places, such as the discussion section of the article.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/p...m-dosing-methods.1085277/page-2#post-13097085

 

[chapter7]

Thanks Randy for all your work! I haven’t even gotten my build wet yet but I’ve already decided on the AFR route just due to its simplicity. Your chart definitely helps give a broad overview of all of the options. I think @areefer01’s point is not that AFR is cheaper, just that the severity of the price difference is less with the powder form.

I try to be frugal when I can. For those who want to jump through a bunch of hoops, Petco sells AFR. A popular cashback site had 10% cashback recently (they have this often,) and Petco gift cards can be found at popular discount gift card sites for around 13% off, AND on your first purchase Petco gives $15 off $49. Shipping is free. Bottom line, I loaded up at about $51 (tax included) per 1600g container. Just throwing it out there for those who are as cheap as me!

 

[ingchr1]

When comparing AFR to what I am currently dosing, surprisingly (or maybe not) the cost comes out to about the same. Maybe someone can validate what I calculated is in the ballpark.

Here is what I used in my calculation (approximations):

Tank Volume = 30 gallons
Alkalinity Consumption = 2dKH/day
Dose = 46ml/day

Cost per gallon/liter:

Soda Ash = $0.90 / $0.24 (baked baking soda @ $9.00 per 13.5lbs)
CaCl = $6.5 / $1.72 (Triton CaCl)
A- Elements = $7.00 / $1.85 (assume 200ml per gallon)
K+ Elements = $7.00 / $1.85 (assume 200ml per gallon)
Part C = $3.10 / $0.81

Total Cost = $24.50 / $6.50

Cost per Dose Current Dosing = $0.30
Cost per Dose AFR = $0.34

I'm actually running through the last of my BRS soda ash, so that actually pushes my current cost up above what AFR would be. Using current BRS soda ash price it would be more like $0.40 per dose.

Unfortunately, I just bought a box of CaCl and have seven more gallons to go through...

It doesn't look like your DIY using BRS ingredients includes the A- and K+ elements. What's the comparison if those are included?

I'm currently adding 200ml of each per gallon. For me that adds $14 to the overall cost. The elements cost $35 per liter.

What I am getting at is that if one is dosing A, B, C, A- and K+ switching to AFR (1600g powder) may not be that much more expensive. It may even be comparable or cheaper. Assuming I don't have some gross error in my calculations.

Not mentioned in my post is that I also assumed that my AFR dosing amount would be the same as my current dosing, 46ml/day.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

What I am getting at is that if one is dosing A, B, C, A- and K+ switching to AFR (1600g powder) may not be that much more expensive. It may even be comparable or cheaper. Assuming I don't have some gross error in my calculations.

Not mentioned in my post is that I also assumed that my AFR dosing amount would be the same as my current dosing, 46ml/day.

A big driver of that cost is where you source the A and B. :)

 

[ingchr1]

A big driver of that cost is where you source the A and B. :)

DIY food grade would cost me $0.08 for the baking soda, calcium chloride and Balling Part C plus $0.17 for the A- and K+ elements for a total of $0.25 per daily dose. My estimate for AFR is $0.31 to $0.34 per daily dose. The AFR would be 24% to 36% more expensive per daily dose, or $22 to $33 more per year. Not that much.