Tropic Marin All for Reef

[areefer01]

Related question... Is there a consensus amongst AFR users on when the cost/benefit of the product changes based on tank size/water volume?

Said another way... What is the opinion on max tank size that using AFR over other options starts to become less viable. I'm looking to start dosing on a 110 gal system. Just curious

Budgets will vary among us so it is really a personal preference. I have read elsewhere of a person dosing over 300 ml/day of AFR.

I suggest this to all AFR users to email Tropic Marin and let them know how much they use per day and ask about a larger size container or bucket available to "hobbyist". The 1600g container is nice but it would be nice to get a larger size to lower the cost further.

I dose 110 ml/day on my 210 gallon mixed reef of 8 years. A lot depends on the growth rate of my SPS as sometimes the alkalinity demand is higher and I have to correct manually. When it trends lower I reduce. 110 ml/day seems to work well with very few adjustments required.

Your mileage may vary of course.

 

[rhitee93]

To be clear I'm not quibbling over it. I was trying to understand the reason for it being labeled expensive is all.

I think that article was written before they released the powdered version.

I just switched over to AFR (powder) from kalkwasser. So far so good. Looks like I'm needing <40ml/day in my 120 gallon tank. Simplicity and space requirements win the day for me over absolute dollar cost.

 

[pooootiqe]

Yeah it’s definitely more to do with coral density and type than the absolute volume. My 10 gallon needed 10 ml at some point lol.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

The interesting thing about that chart to me is that it kinda shows what I would expect, that AFR's main drawback, which is cost of materials or value per unit of dkH is mitigated when you use it in nano tanks. It's still more expensive per unit, but that's offset by needing less dosing pumps, less space for additive containers etc, and just generally needing less of it to make up for loss.

That's all true. Cost for a small tank is not a large consideration, and equipment costs can be pretty low.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I think that article was written before they released the powdered version.

I just switched over to AFR (powder) from kalkwasser. So far so good. Looks like I'm needing <40ml/day in my 120 gallon tank. Simplicity and space requirements win the day for me over absolute dollar cost.

No it wasn't. I wrote it just recently. The cost comparison stands even for the powder.

Let's check real data before just accepting that I simply was not aware of the powder..

Powder AFR at BRS:

1600 g for $75.04. That makes 10 Liters. Alk is 6,000 dKH. In my cost comparison method ( cost to boost 100 gallons by 2 dKH), here's how that breaks down.

10 L can boost 30,000 L (7925 gallons) by 2 dKH one time. Or 100 gallons 79 times.

It thus costs about $0.95 per dose.

Compare to the next most expensive thing on my list, commercial ESV B-ionic.

Since we are comparing a larger amount of AFR to buy (than i did in my study), it's fair to also buy a larger package of B-ionic. It's not a perfect comparison since the B-ionic is not exactly the same dollars spent ($110 for the 8 gallon package vs $75 for the AFR) but let's go with it. The 8 gallon package is 4 gallons of each part.

To boost 100 gallons of tank water by 2 dKH takes 97 ml of normal ESV B-ionic.

4 gallons (15,140 mL) can thus boost 100 gallons by 2 dKH 156 times.

Thus, the cost per 2 dKH boost to 100 gallons is $110/156 = $0.71 per dose.

Consequently, even the AFR powder is more expensive than the most expensive other product on my list, which, incidentally, I call expense: high.

One can decide for themselves if they want to spend the money, but picking powder and making the liquid yourself does not make it anything but still the most expensive product listed.

Don't misunderstand my AFR position. I intend to use it on my current tank. But I also accept that it is expensive for a medium to large tank (mine is a 120 gallons).

 

[areefer01]

No it wasn't. I wrote it just recently. The cost comparison stands even for the powder.

Let's check real data before just accepting that I simply was not aware of the powder..

Powder AFR at BRS:

1600 g for $75.04. That makes 10 Liters. Alk is 6,000 dKH. In my cost comparison method ( cost to boost 100 gallons by 2 dKH), here's how that breaks down.

10 L can boost 30,000 L (7925 gallons) by 2 dKH one time. Or 100 gallons 79 times.

It thus costs about $0.95 per dose.

Compare to the next most expensive thing on my list, commercial ESV B-ionic.

Since we are comparing a larger amount of AFR to buy (than i did in my study), it's fair to also buy a larger package of B-ionic. It's not a perfect comparison since the B-ionic is not exactly the same dollars spent ($110 for the 8 gallon package vs $75 for the AFR) but let's go with it. The 8 gallon package is 4 gallons of each part.

To boost 100 gallons of tank water by 2 dKH takes 97 ml of normal ESV B-ionic.

4 gallons (15,140 mL) can thus boost 100 gallons by 2 dKH 156 times.

Thus, the cost per 2 dKH boost to 100 gallons is $110/156 = $0.71 per dose.

Consequently, even the AFR powder is more expensive than the most expensive other product on my list, which, incidentally, I call expense: high.

One can decide for themselves if they want to spend the money, but picking powder and making the liquid yourself does not make it anything but still the most expensive product listed.

Don't misunderstand my AFR position. I intend to use it on my current tank. But I also accept that it is expensive for a medium to large tank (mine is a 120 gallons).

I don't want to come across as I'm arguing with you, I'm not. Having said that one isn't going to use AFR for alkalinity and calcium since there are better solutions out there. More than likely they are using AFR because it also includes trace elements in a single solution. The cost of the product is more than likely not considered.

Is AFR still not as cost effective as 3 part or CA Reactors is another story or if the single solution juice worth the squeeze.

After reading your previous reply I took "liquid" as your base product for the calculations which was incorrect on my part. That is really all I was trying to clear up. I probably would have just noted All For Reef and left liquid or powder off as you did the math already. Then again assumptions are left I guess either way. Hope this makes my original conversation with you more clear as to why I asked.

 

[pooootiqe]

Shame there isn’t really a way to buy calcium formate super cheap.

Unless someone wants to split a ton of (literally) calcium formate from Alibaba with me? :D

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I don't want to come across as I'm arguing with you, I'm not. Having said that one isn't going to use AFR for alkalinity and calcium since there are better solutions out there. More than likely they are using AFR because it also includes trace elements in a single solution. The cost of the product is more than likely not considered.

Is AFR still not as cost effective as 3 part or CA Reactors is another story or if the single solution juice worth the squeeze.

After reading your previous reply I took "liquid" as your base product for the calculations which was incorrect on my part. That is really all I was trying to clear up. I probably would have just noted All For Reef and left liquid or powder off as you did the math already. Then again assumptions are left I guess either way. Hope this makes my original conversation with you more clear as to why I asked.

FWIW, I think that folks may mistakenly assume AFR solves all trace element concerns, when in reality, the best it can do is satisfy an average reef tank. Maybe it satisfies a given tank, and maybe not.

Its not sensible, IMO, to think that the level of, say, iron or manganese consumption, is tied to the calcium and alkalinity consumption. A soft coral tank that grows marcoalgae may have more consumption of Fe and Mn than an acro tank, and yet will have much lower additions of these elements from AFR since much less AFR will be used.

That is why I plan to use both AFR (or possibly carbocalcium only) and TM A and K. I expect to have a lot of organisms that use trace elements but not calcium and alk, including anemones and macroalgae.

 

[areefer01]

That is why I plan to use both AFR (or possibly carbocalcium only) and TM A and K. I expect to have a lot of organisms that use trace elements but not calcium and alk, including anemones and macroalgae.

All For Reef already has all elements of the K and A. This seems counter intuitive to me unless you want to add more / increase the amount. Seems like a / your 2 part + K and A or similar product would be better or cheaper.

I am aware you know what K and A are so do not mean to sound obvious.

Hope your day is well.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

All For Reef already has all elements of the K and A. This seems counter intuitive to me unless you want to add more / increase the amount. Seems like a / your 2 part + K and A or similar product would be better or cheaper.

I am aware you know what K and A are so do not mean to sound obvious.

Hope your day is well.

Sure it contains the same.

But in AFR the amount is tied to the alk and calcium demand. Low demand for alk means a low dose of iron or manganese.

Is iron demand tied to alk demand? No. many tanks may have high iron demand and low alk demand.

That's the example I gave of a soft coral tank with macroalgae or ATS or anemones, etc. It may have almost no alk demand, and lots of iron demand

AFR cannot solve that situation.

AFR (or just carbo calcium) plus TM A and K can.

The only things in AFR that are clearly tied to alk and calcium demand are, I think, fluoride and magnesium. Nothing else is so related to calcification.

 

[I never finish anythi]

Many people, including myself, use this product.

It is cheaper if you get the powder, but it is also a pain to mix.

I actually find it quite easy to mix TBF. I just mix 1ltr worth in a 1.5ltr bottle and shake the hell out of it for 2 minutes and it's done .

 

[rhitee93]

No it wasn't. I wrote it just recently. The cost comparison stands even for the powder.

Let's check real data before just accepting that I simply was not aware of the powder..

Oops, my mistake, and my apologies.

 

[Troylee]

I use it as a newb myself.. to help combat the cost in my 300 gallon tank I top off with kalk and dose 115ml daily of all for reef.. it lets me slack on my water changes and does it job well!

 

[areefer01]

Sure it contains the same.

But in AFR the amount is tied to the alk and calcium demand. Low demand for alk means a low dose of iron or manganese.

Is iron demand tied to alk demand? No. many tanks may have high iron demand and low alk demand.

That's the example I gave of a soft coral tank with macroalgae or ATS or anemones, etc. It may have almost no alk demand, and lots of iron demand

AFR cannot solve that situation.

AFR (or just carbo calcium) plus TM A and K can.

The only things in AFR that are clearly tied to alk and calcium demand are, I think, fluoride and magnesium. Nothing else is so related to calcification.

It then begs the question if one is using the right tool for the job. Never the less thanks for the dialog. Appreciate it.

 

[Hats_]

Been running my sps heavy reef tank on allforreef for about 2 and a half years now. I do no waterchanges and icps always come back good or at least close enough for my comfort. consumption is about 80ml on a 350l tank.

Really happy with the powder form since it is very cheap (1600 grams for 45€ here) and mixing it goes pretty easy with a magnet stirrer and a micro heater to warm the water a little

 

[Ooh fiddlesticks]

Been running my sps heavy reef tank on allforreef for about 2 and a half years now. I do no waterchanges and icps always come back good or at least close enough for my comfort. consumption is about 80ml on a 350l tank.

Really happy with the powder form since it is very cheap (1600 grams for 45€ here) and mixing it goes pretty easy with a magnet stirrer and a micro heater to warm the water a little

How long does the 1600g last for you?

 

[areefer01]

How long does the 1600g last for you?

They mentioned about 80 ml consumption. If we assume that is per day then we can use some basic math:

1600g makes 10 liters
10 liters = 10000 ml
10000 / 80 ml (daily dose) = 125 days (estimated)

Of course I will need to let @Hats_ actually reply because I could be assuming...

 

[Ooh fiddlesticks]

They mentioned about 80 ml consumption. If we assume that is per day then we can use some basic math:

1600g makes 10 liters
10 liters = 10000 ml
10000 / 80 ml (daily dose) = 125 days (estimated)

Of course I will need to let @Hats_ actually reply because I could be assuming...

Your math does check out, I guess what I was trying to figure out was the powder to water ratio. So 160g : 1L which you answered, so thanks!

 

[michael23]

It is still a pain IMO. But warm/hot water and a stirrer definitely helps.

It is still a pain IMO. But warm/hot water and a stirrer definitely helps.

same issue . even open small pump stir a day still not fully dissolve. and it stuck at my dosing machine after using a while. At the end the shop tell me the secret, i not sure theory is correct or not. he said cold water will made dissolve faster not hot water. i try with with ice bag, mixed for 4500ml water, within an hour it dissolve all.

 

[p1u5h13r4m24]

Hello! I absolutely love AFR I switch between AFR and kalkwasser through out the day. Kalk for the ph boost and AFR for trace elements. The combo works great!