Turnover rates, filter vs flow rates.

[Duzzy]

Gday folks,

I realiz this may be a redundant question apologies for that, im trying to research pumps and have searched google and forums and have seen numbers ranging from 3x to 60x and wind up more baffled. In my current aquariums I run 3-6 times through the filter But have never done a mixed reef and a large one at that.

So what should the turnover be through filter/sump? Vs what should the turnover be internally as in power heads, gyros, wavemakers etc.

I’m also hoping to use the sea swirl (actually 3-4 of them) in a large mixed reef but I’m uncertain if the random flow created from them would be enough. I hate the look of powerheads on glass and hoping to avoid it.

Regards Darren

 

[Vivid Creative Aquatics]

Gday folks,

I realiz this may be a redundant question apologies for that, im trying to research pumps and have searched google and forums and have seen numbers ranging from 3x to 60x and wind up more baffled. In my current aquariums I run 3-6 times through the filter But have never done a mixed reef and a large one at that.

So what should the turnover be through filter/sump? Vs what should the turnover be internally as in power heads, gyros, wavemakers etc.

I’m also hoping to use the sea swirl (actually 3-4 of them) in a large mixed reef but I’m uncertain if the random flow created from them would be enough. I hate the look of powerheads on glass and hoping to avoid it.

Regards Darren

It's pretty subjective and everyone will have differing opinions - but in generally, i try and shoot for somewhere around 10x turn over for the sump.

However, there are many factor that can affect this. You want the water to spend sufficient time in the sump to have enough contact time with the Skimmer, reactors and any other filtration device you may be running, but you don't want it to flow so slow through there as to be stagnate. So you may need to adjust that figure based on sump size.

As far as using 3 to 4 inlets with SeaSwirls as your sole source of flow in the tank, it is certainly possible - especially if you add a Random Flow Generator Nozzle to the end of each one. But - if you are running 4 returns off a single return pump, you will need quite large pump. It might be a better choice to run two return line and two as a closed loop - or even 1 as a return and 3 on a closed loop.

This would allow you to tune the amount of flow/turnover going through your sump without influencing how much flow you have in the display tank

Then on the closed loop(s) you can crank up the flow and really take full advantage of the SeaSwirls with RFG nozzles without overrunning your sump

 

[Duzzy]

It's pretty subjective and everyone will have differing opinions - but in generally, i try and shoot for somewhere around 10x turn over for the sump.

However, there are many factor that can affect this. You want the water to spend sufficient time in the sump to have enough contact time with the Skimmer, reactors and any other filtration device you may be running, but you don't want it to flow so slow through there as to be stagnate. So you may need to adjust that figure based on sump size.

As far as using 3 to 4 inlets with SeaSwirls as your sole source of flow in the tank, it is certainly possible - especially if you add a Random Flow Generator Nozzle to the end of each one. But - if you are running 4 returns off a single return pump, you will need quite large pump. It might be a better choice to run two return line and two as a closed loop - or even 1 as a return and 3 on a closed loop.

This would allow you to tune the amount of flow/turnover going through your sump without influencing how much flow you have in the display tank

Then on the closed loop(s) you can crank up the flow and really take full advantage of the SeaSwirls with RFG nozzles without overrunning your sump

This is my dream tank so I’m running 4 pumps from sump. I believe in redundancies so here’s what I’m thinking

~pump 1 from sump to uv to tank via sea swirl with random flow educator fitted (flow set for disease)
~pump 2 from sump to uv 2 to tank through sea swirl with random flow educator (flow set for algae)
~pump 3 from sump to tank via sensor manifold to sea swirl with random flow educator
~pump 4 from sump to tank via reactor manifold to sea swirl with random flow educator

im running a dual custom hmahli sump tank size is 748 gallon empty. I’m just worried the length will mean the sea swirls won’t be enough but if placed in the right spots I’m hoping it will be ok.

thanks for your response

regards Duzzy

 

[TangerineSpeedo]

In a tank that size, I would definitely think about some closed loops. Using your sea swirls coming out of your UV's may be just a waste, the flow will be so low, you may not get any benefit from the swirl.
Your main filtration will be "in tank" with the live rock taking on the waste load. Your sump will contain your heaters, skimmer, particle collector, whether that be a fleece roller or a sock and reactors. So your sump flow, as Anthony said is going to be enough that all those things are efficiently doing their jobs.

 

[Vivid Creative Aquatics]

@Duzzy , I'm going to agree with @TangerineSpeedo in that the UV on a return line or even closed loop design to provide flow, as well, would be less than ideal. Add the UV system on its on feed pump from the up stream in the sump, back to the sump downstream, so you not processing the same water.

Another thing to consider, if you run all four return off four individual pumps as an "open lop" meaning coming from the sump and returning down through a drain back to the sump, you'll need a pretty heft drain for that much flow. pumps

You may be better served to use 4 pumps, but one is a return pump, while the other 3 are for a closed loops. Then, if make them all identical pumps, you can swap on out if//when the return pump fails, in an emergency , until you get a proper Replacment.

That's basically what we did for our office tank - you can read about it in our build thread

At 748 gallon (empty) thetas big tank - what are the overall dimensions? What what size SeaSwirls do you have?

 

[Duzzy]

@Duzzy , I'm going to agree with @TangerineSpeedo in that the UV on a return line or even closed loop design to provide flow, as well, would be less than ideal. Add the UV system on its on feed pump from the up stream in the sump, back to the sump downstream, so you not processing the same water.

Another thing to consider, if you run all four return off four individual pumps as an "open lop" meaning coming from the sump and returning down through a drain back to the sump, you'll need a pretty heft drain for that much flow. pumps

You may be better served to use 4 pumps, but one is a return pump, while the other 3 are for a closed loops. Then, if make them all identical pumps, you can swap on out if//when the return pump fails, in an emergency , until you get a proper Replacment.

That's basically what we did for our office tank - you can read about it in our build thread

At 748 gallon (empty) thetas big tank - what are the overall dimensions? What what size SeaSwirls do you have?

Thanks to you both @TangerineSpeedo @vividcreativeaquatics Do you think I should run 2 closed loops each with uv then return pumps split to sea swirls? I’m concerned being 10ft long I’m not going to have enough It’s 10 x 4 x 2-2.5 uncertain on height yet though leaning 2.5. The drains I had anticipated 2 overflow boxes each with 2 x 2" holes and drains. I’m still planning but want to do it right even if it delays things a bit. Dramatic differences between freshwater and marine though enjoying the challenges

 

[Vivid Creative Aquatics]

Thanks to you both @TangerineSpeedo @vividcreativeaquatics Do you think I should run 2 closed loops each with uv then return pumps split to sea swirls? I’m concerned being 10ft long I’m not going to have enough It’s 10 x 4 x 2-2.5 uncertain on height yet though leaning 2.5. The drains I had anticipated 2 overflow boxes each with 2 x 2" holes and drains. I’m still planning but want to do it right even if it delays things a bit. Dramatic differences between freshwater and marine though enjoying the challenges

Scene you are still in the planning stage, here are two options to place either the 1in or 1.25in Random Flow Generators, installed on Sea Swirls - in either off these two options you would be able to flow the entire tank tank - but you would need to supply a minimum of 700 GPH (1in RFG) and 1200 GPH (1.25in RFG) to EACH outlet. This would be easy to do with 4 pumps, or 2 pumps (1 return and 1 closed loops)

Instead of 2 overflow boxes, i did one 24in wide thin overflow with an external 36in box. This will be much easier to tune and keep quite than two separate overflow boxes.

Also - I still think it would be better to run your UV either off a manifold fed form the main return line lines, or as a separate systems from the the closed loops or main return pump. it complicate the plumbing a bit, but in the long run will be much easier to service and maintain.

 

[Duzzy]

Scene you are still in the planning stage, here are two options to place either the 1in or 1.25in Random Flow Generators, installed on Sea Swirls - in either off these two options you would be able to flow the entire tank tank - but you would need to supply a minimum of 700 GPH (1in RFG) and 1200 GPH (1.25in RFG) to EACH outlet. This would be easy to do with 4 pumps, or 2 pumps (1 return and 1 closed loops)

Instead of 2 overflow boxes, i did one 24in wide thin overflow with an external 36in box. This will be much easier to tune and keep quite than two separate overflow boxes.

Also - I still think it would be better to run your UV either off a manifold fed form the main return line lines, or as a separate systems from the the closed loops or main return pump. it complicate the plumbing a bit, but in the long run will be much easier to service and maintain.

I wasn’t sure there’d be enough flow via a manifold for uv given the flow needed in display tank. Running uv from manifolds means I can run 2 pumps closed loops to sea swirl and 2 from sump to sea swirl.

the long single low profile overflow is appealing. The reason I was using 2 overflow boxes was the dual sumps I figured it would be easier to tune (1 sump in 2 halves) it’s based on a tank I saw online the 2 sumps were done to great effect 1 had skimmer uv’s, filter roller, refugium the other filter roller, skimmer, reactors, dosing (works in my head suffice to say I’m asking questions to verify

This tank is a peninsula so not certain the above placem works though a rectangle is a rectangle I guess.

regards Duzzy

 

[TangerineSpeedo]

If this was my tank... I would run a manifold with gate valves and flow meters off of one pump. That would be for the UV's, Reactors and a chiller. You can either return that to the main tank or to the other sump. Since you just mentioned that this is going to be a peninsula. I would do two closed loops, with returns, one on the end and one in the middle. That will go a long way to solve your flow issues. You can do a riser hidden within a rock stack.
As far as the height of the tank. unless you have super long ape arms, you would be hard pressed to work in the middle section of your tank or even a side section without tools. Maybe buy some pvc and set up the outline of your tank and see what you would have to do to work on it.

 

[Duzzy]

If this was my tank... I would run a manifold with gate valves and flow meters off of one pump. That would be for the UV's, Reactors and a chiller. You can either return that to the main tank or to the other sump. Since you just mentioned that this is going to be a peninsula. I would do two closed loops, with returns, one on the end and one in the middle. That will go a long way to solve your flow issues. You can do a riser hidden within a rock stack.
As far as the height of the tank. unless you have super long ape arms, you would be hard pressed to work in the middle section of your tank or even a side section without tools. Maybe buy some pvc and set up the outline of your tank and see what you would have to do to work on it.

Are you referring to the 4ft issue and reach?

I like the idea of running uv’s and reactors off a manifold my concern is is the head pressure it’s too close with the abyzz a200 and the a400 seems too much not to mention they’re size in the pump chamber which means running them externally.

the side walls of the stand fold out to make a walkway to make maintenance easier.