Unknown Cause: SPS Crash

[LilElroyJetson]

I’m also in the camp of there just having been too many changes (particularly the phosphate and nitrate swings) that were a little too drastic and over too short a period of time, and in a tank that new the stress probably made the corals more susceptible to tissue necrosis. I hope some of it’s still salvageable for you but once you get back on track and things are even in a remotely acceptable range, I would just be as hands off as possible and try to let the tank be as stable as it can be until it matures.

 

[mfollen]

It's been reported by many with issues similar to the OP's that low nutrients and sudden increases in light intensity stress corals. The duration of the stress lends to the decline to the point of the bad bacteria (Vibro) attacking their tissue. Infection sets in. Limited protozoa surrounding the coral now proliferate and consume the dieing tissue. Thus RTN. Once this happens, fragging the dying tissue off and removing it from the system aides in reducing this infection spread to near by healthy corals. In the case of a system wide event, total loss is highly likely. Correcting the conditions that caused the stress helps, but once infection sets in, it can take months to recover.

Mature systems seem, this is anecdotal, to fair better in these stress events. Healthy corals seem to handle stress events at first.

This is great information, I thought I read plenty and was prepared for acro's but I was not prepared for this. Thank you everyone for your help.

It seems that the lighting and nutrient changes in the short period triggered the die off.
I took a water sample before just doing a water change to send it in for ICP testing to confirm no other issues.

I have some more fish coming tomorrow for an increased bio-load, so I will likely be slowing or halting Po4 & No3 dosing to stabilize the system following the Vibrant treatment for the turf algae.

What I (and others) are curious in determining is whether kalkwasser and carbo calcium should be both dosed in one system... And what impact carbo calcium may be having on the the system or issues aside from reducing nutrients.

The help you've all offered is overwhelming. I don't know where the hobby would be without the community. Thank you everyone.

 

[Flippers4pups]

To answer the question about carbo calcium and kalkwasser (calcium hydroxide, pickling lime....etc) pick one or the other. Not sure about what's in carbo calcium other than it states its concentrated calcium and alkalinity. It's most likely calcium hydroxide and something else.

I dose calcium hydroxide in with my ATO top off water. I have a substantial coral load and can afford to dose it this way. I use Mrs. Wages pickling lime from Walmart. Its 100% calcium hydroxide. Way cheaper than buying it from a reef supply.

It supplies all my calcium and alkalinity needs.

Here's a good read on calcium hydroxide:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-01/rhf/index.php

Pick one or the other to dose only.

 

[mfollen]

Thank you @Flippers4pups I’ve read this article before. Always good to read over again.

Is there a reason why kalkwasser and carbo calcium (calcium hydroxide & calcium formate) can not be mixed?

I’m limited with how much kalkwasser I can dose and I want the ph raising benefits...

 

[mfollen]

Sorry, edit: mixing calcium hydroxide and calcium formate (carbo calcium)

 

[Flippers4pups]

Chemistry wise, sorry I don't know that answer.

 

[ScottB]

It's been reported by many with issues similar to the OP's that low nutrients and sudden increases in light intensity stress corals. The duration of the stress lends to the decline to the point of the bad bacteria (Vibro) attacking their tissue. Infection sets in. Limited protozoa surrounding the coral now proliferate and consume the dieing tissue. Thus RTN. Once this happens, fragging the dying tissue off and removing it from the system aides in reducing this infection spread to near by healthy corals. In the case of a system wide event, total loss is highly likely. Correcting the conditions that caused the stress helps, but once infection sets in, it can take months to recover.

Mature systems seem, this is anecdotal, to fair better in these stress events. Healthy corals seem to handle stress events at first.

Now that I see you present it this way, it does seem to be a very common theme particularly in the SPS world. It is often hard to pinpoint with certainty, the initial stressor(s). While it is hard to resist, this pattern really does support the repeated mantra of "if it ain't broke...". I wish I were better at following that advice sometimes. OK, a lot of the time.

It has taken me awhile to appreciate the breadth of life forms in our systems. Each are lying in wait for the parameter change that suits their particular physiology. They are all there, all the time, but are held in check by the balance of the ecosystem. Bacterias, protozoan, algaes, herbivores, parasites, pests, working fish, planktons, corals. Each have a means of barely subsisting quietly, loitering for their moment to take over.

I apologize for getting all philosophical; it is just that I have come out of 3 months of dinoflagellate Hell. And while I can no longer detect them, I know they are there. Resting for now. Just waiting for me to add that super cool PAX Bellum algae reactor that would look fabulous next to my sump. Oversized for sure.

@mfollen I am sorry your your beloved SPS are under attack. It is obvious you have the chops for this hobby, so I am not worried about you restarting if that is where you ultimately have to go. Hopefully the system steadies itself over the next few weeks.

 

[mfollen]

Currently waiting on the results of an ICP test. Parameters have been stable since.

I started dosing vibrant to attack the green turf algae that has absolutely taken over my rockwork.

Can everyone take a look at the attached pictures? The damage is bad, even LPS have died.. I want to ensure it was the light / low nutrient issue. Just so I ensure this scale of a loss does not occur again. Even LPS and monti’s on the bottom have fully died...

 

[mfollen]

I posted the pictures above because the death is almost all my corals.even zoanthids lower in the tank are suffering.

Could be that the green turf algae is releasing something in the tank? Something else I can’t detect with an ICP test? Or could a spike in nutrients and/or a quickened light increase almost entirely destroy a whole tank? LPS and zoas included?

Things were going so good and now it’s just awful. Never seen such a huge change in a tank... I just worrry that there is something else going on...

 

[ScottB]

I just did a quick review of the thread to check, so maybe I missed it, but what is your photoperiod like?

That level of algae growth -- when coming from a low nutrient situation -- seems excessive. I recall you saying that dosing brought your levels up to a nuisance algae range (and yes, I know it is trial/error getting balance when dosing NO3/PO4 so no judgement here) but that is quite a lot of green.

The longer photo periods can be tough on acros and marvelous for turf/hair algae. My sweet spot is around 7 hours of full on (8X80 watt T5) and two hours of baby blue actinic before and after.

 

[mfollen]

Thanks again @ScottB

When I started to bump up the nutrients and trying to dial them in, PO4 would vary typically from .003-.04, No3 up to 20. Otherwise been low (.003 PO4 & 2.5 no3) since **** hit the fan...

Photoperiod I’m guessing is 8.5. With close to 2 hour ramp up and down...

The turf algae is very thick. When I was dosing the nutrients it sucked it right up.

There’s going to be a nutrient bomb if vibrant starts killing it. Will need major water changes...

As for algae moving forward...
Thinking if vibrant kills it fully, I will carbon dose after to ensure more competition as a preventative. I now have more fish in the tank to drive nutrients up without dosing.

As for corals moving forward... I need to come to terms with what happened. As of now, I’m still not fully sure. But will 100% run with the nutrient volatility and light increase when the corals were stressed from low nutrients as suggested by most posters here.

It’s just hard to imagine that causing such damage to even hardier corals such as LPS...

 

[Retro Reefer]

IMO your issues are most likely from a immature tank and all the stuff you are adding to your tank.. keep it simple, Kalkwasser or two part for Alk and Cal stability, feed for N&P and use a large diverse CUC along with good tank husbandry to keep algae in check.

 

[Semisonyx]

What are you using to test NO2 and PO4? You appear to have excessive nutrients. I would stop dosing those immediately. As long as you have to scrape algae off the glass every couple of days, you still have sufficient NO2 and PO4, despite what the kits say.

I was in your shoes until just recently. Had a thriving reef until one day I started seeing STN/RTN. Took me over a year of fighting it and losing over $1k of high-end SPS (while spending about as much in chasing new pumps/parts and treatments) before I had an ICP test. It showed mega high levels of tin which could have been from metal contamination of either the salt or other some foreign object. I wrapped, changed, or removed any oxidized metal clamps above my sump (which had been there for years) and switched back to FritzPRO salt from Reef Crystals (which I coincidentally started about a month prior to the RTN/STN). Within a week I could see things turning around. A month later, and the growth and color is back to the way it used to be.

Hang in there, and good luck.

 

[BestMomEver]

As others have said.... too much, too soon. I would address one issue at a time, the first being the hair algae. You might have to scrub your rock with a tooth brush. I would stop dosing until it goes away. Increase nutrients by feeding a little more.

 

[mfollen]

Thanks everyone... I appreciate your advice. Focusing on tackling the turf algae with vibrant than resetting with a more simple and stable approach.. more fish and more food. No nutrient dosing.

 

[mfollen]

Update on remaining acropora, ICP test & turf algae below:
ICP Test:
No major issues detected. But I have 0 Iodine and low Bromine. Any concerns with the 0 Iodine?

Turf Algae: Vibrant cleaner has been doing a great job knocking it back. It's dying and is slowly withering away. I'm very impressed now that I am 4 doses in. I have been keeping a very close eye on P04 & N03 and have kept it in check.

Remaining acropora: I really am not sure if it's the Vibrant and the remaining stress from the instability a month ago, but some of my maybe 5 or 6 frags left just started receding. Picture attached - notice the tips of the polyps? That's typically how the acro's start going. Thought I'd share in case it brings any new thoughts up.

Thank you all again very much, I would love any more help. As I essentially hit the reset button here.

 

[ScottB]

Well I guess you've read already that NSW has .06ppm Iodide in it.

The Triton folks recommend dosing to maintain NSW level. And surprise! They sell such a supplement.

What salt do you use again? TM Pro was it? Whichever it is, look up whether it supplies Iodide. I use IORC and Iodide is listed at .06-.1ppm

Many folks supplement with Lugols. I do intermittently, can't say it does/does not do much. I dose so little, because I don't test for it. Sometimes, if my duncan is sulking, I will pop a couple of drops in a 139G system.