**UPDATE* Hi from UK help needed with first nano tank

[TOM-779]

Hi Merry Christmas to all and Thank you to all who replied to original post.

However, I am still unsure as to best way to proceed.

Quick recap - setting up 13.5 gallon tank with real ocean Indo-live rock, NSW, live sand.

But previously LFS advised that I would still need to cycle tank using starter bacteria and liquid ammonia.

My worry was that dosing ammonia to Dr Tim ammonium chloride would kill off microbes and microfauna
present in Live rock. And Indo rock shipped wet and then place straight into holding tank - hoping life is still substantial on all rocks.

Advice has been split between no bacteria,no ammonium chloride - versus dosing both bacteria and ammonium.

Appreciate all advice, but I really would appreciate some additional help. Indo live rock very expensive so want to get it right
especially in order to get tank off to best start.

I am sure you must have to repeat yourselves often so sorry if I am a pain. I have gone through past posts but cant find what I am looking for.

If I can find someone to guide me through some simple steps as to how to proceed I would be very grateful

Many thanks and sorry

Tom

 

[CoralNewb]

I would say no need to dose bacteria or ammonium. But you should monitor ammonia and nitrate levels to see if any die off is occurring. If ammonia is not present, and the live rock and live sand are indeed mature, I’d say the tank is already cycled. You can also check by using a dosing calculator to dose a small traceable amount of ammonium into the tank, and see if you get detectable levels of nitrate after a day.

 

[CoralNewb]

Actually, I wouldn’t even dose ammonia. With live rock and sand, the biggest worry is die off of the more complex organisms on the rock and sand, which will produce the ammonia source for your microbes. I would just monitor for ammonia levels. If you see no levels of ammonia, then I think the rock is cured. There are already sufficient bacterial concentrations on the rock and sand.

I see two cases:
Case One:
Rock is still uncured, meaning things are still firing due to transport and environmental stress, in which case you should detect ammonia in the water, but it should trend downward over time.

Case two:
Rock is sufficiently adjusted to tank life, the organisms in the rock are alive and well and you have no die off. In that case, I think you should be good to go adding livestock, but slowly.

So don’t spend money on bottled bacteria or ammonia, just get some decent tests, API is sufficient in my opinion.

 

[DietDr.Kelp]

I haven't ever used bottled bacteria, so I likely wouldn't worry about it if I'm setting up a new tank with live rock. I'd just be patient about waiting to add fish or other critters and see how things settle with just the rock in the tank. The rock should have all of the bacteria you need to get started, and maybe even some hitchhikers depending on where it's coming from.

 

[TOM-779]

Thank you so much for your help.

As recommended I will set up and leave tank running with live rock - and monitor every 24hrs for first week to see where readings are.

I guess there should be some die off to feed the bacteria. But will the bacteria be ok for a week or two without direct food source until I get first livestock. I am thinking after 1/2 week monitoring water if all ok I will then get first livestock.

I only want two fish - I am thinking buying 2 very small clownfish or possibly something else and then concentrating on soft corals. I guess I might also get a few CUC as soon as may be needed as well as copepods in aid of compact any uglies.

Actually, as I will not be using ammonia source - I may add some copepods other microfauna before fish - what do you think?

I am very grateful for your advice and help
Thanks again
Tom

 

[CoralNewb]

I think so. I really believe that the idea of feeding bacteria is oversimplified. Assuming mature rock, a week of no Ammonia will not impact the biome imo. When I set up my tanks, I let dry rock or rubble soak up in my established tank for a few weeks or so. Then transfer to the new tank. Sometimes I wait 2-3 weeks after adding the rock before adding any inhabitants, and I still get no detectable ammonia levels in the new tank.

 

[TOM-779]

Thanks for replying so quickly

I feel a lot more confident now thanks.

Do you think as I will only be getting 2 fish - that I could introduce the two at once - especially if I decide on clowns. Also, when should I start adding some hardy soft coral.

As soon as I get things up and running I will put up new thread on tanks progress.

Thanks again
Tom

 

[DietDr.Kelp]

Thanks for replying so quickly

I feel a lot more confident now thanks.

Do you think as I will only be getting 2 fish - that I could introduce the two at once - especially if I decide on clowns. Also, when should I start adding some hardy soft coral.

As soon as I get things up and running I will put up new thread on tanks progress.

Thanks again
Tom

It will be ideal to add the clownfish at the same time to minimize aggression/ maximize possibility of pairing. Or better yet, get an established bonded pair.

After allowing the tank time to settle after initial setup, assuming parameters are appropriate, I would add the inhabitants as follows: CUC (snails, hermits, etc), fish, then corals. After adding each, wait a week or more and continue testing and getting used to caring for the tank. Setup a maintenance schedule and stick with it. Don't rush the process.

 

[CoralNewb]

Sure thing! I'm pretty new in the hobby as well, so take my advice with a grain of salt. :)

For clowns, I definitely think it's better to get a bonded pair and introduce them together, instead of trying to find a compatible partner later on. For corals, you can honestly add them starting from day one. They are different in terms of biology from fish and mobile invertebrates. The presence of Ammonia might actually be good for them. Even some hardier LPS might be a good thing to try such as Duncans or Acans.

I would recommend just starting slowly as with the fish. I think for me, the initial trouble I had was slowly figuring out flow and lighting, which are concepts that you sort of need to experiment with on your own and the mastery of which comes with experience. I had some major coral losses initially, I think mainly because I didn't really understand flow and lighting was too intense, but also because the environment my tank was in was also bad (it got really hot in the summer, and I couldn't justify a chiller). I also slowly learned how to spot good livestock and look out for corals that had issues.

I think it helps to treat it as a problem-solving hobby, that's what makes it fun and interesting, knowing that a change you did has an effect and trying to understand why is one of my favorite aspects of this hobby. You will make a lot of mistakes or have a lot of misunderstandings, but if you observe carefully, take in information from trustworthy sources, and adjust things slowly, nature has a chance to create homeostasis in your tank.

 

[TOM-779]

It will be ideal to add the clownfish at the same time to minimize aggression/ maximize possibility of pairing. Or better yet, get an established bonded pair.

After allowing the tank time to settle after initial setup, assuming parameters are appropriate, I would add the inhabitants as follows: CUC (snails, hermits, etc), fish, then corals. After adding each, wait a week or more and continue testing and getting used to caring for the tank. Setup a maintenance schedule and stick with it. Don't rush the process.

Thanks I am so grateful for the advice. I am definitely not going to rush things. I just thought the introduction of some beneficial microbes and microfauna - especially pods may help tanks development during early stages. What do you guys think?

 

[TOM-779]

Sure thing! I'm pretty new in the hobby as well, so take my advice with a grain of salt. :)

For clowns, I definitely think it's better to get a bonded pair and introduce them together, instead of trying to find a compatible partner later on. For corals, you can honestly add them starting from day one. They are different in terms of biology from fish and mobile invertebrates. The presence of Ammonia might actually be good for them. Even some hardier LPS might be a good thing to try such as Duncans or Acans.

I would recommend just starting slowly as with the fish. I think for me, the initial trouble I had was slowly figuring out flow and lighting, which are concepts that you sort of need to experiment with on your own and the mastery of which comes with experience. I had some major coral losses initially, I think mainly because I didn't really understand flow and lighting was too intense, but also because the environment my tank was in was also bad (it got really hot in the summer, and I couldn't justify a chiller). I also slowly learned how to spot good livestock and look out for corals that had issues.

I think it helps to treat it as a problem-solving hobby, that's what makes it fun and interesting, knowing that a change you did has an effect and trying to understand why is one of my favorite aspects of this hobby. You will make a lot of mistakes or have a lot of misunderstandings, but if you observe carefully, take in information from trustworthy sources, and adjust things slowly, nature has a chance to create homeostasis in your tank.

Hi CoralNewb​

Many thanks. I have been thinking about flow already and have made the choice to replace the stock pump on the Evo 13.5. I am thinking about replacing it with jecod dcs 1200 (I did want the jecod dcs 650 but cant seem to get it in UK). At least I can adjust the power of flow with this pump. I am then going to get RFG, and look into wave maker after working out whether needed. I would like a wave maker to help move matter off bed/rocks etc. But not knowing how flows going to be with jecod pump yet - and also flow needed for the soft corals I will choose I guess I will wait a while.

In terms of lighting I am keeping the stock light to see how it functions-hoping it will be ok for basic soft corals.

The only reason I was getting 2 fish was to help production of enough waste to keep the bacteria happy. Last night I was thinking about what species of fish to get. And apart from yellow tailed damsels(?) I have decided on the clowns. Although more difficult |I was thinking about percula over smaller size -but I guess ocellaris would be the wiser choice. But I am still concerned about bio-load in tank - even with just the two in tank. And I am also concerned about whether they will be ok in the tank long-term when they mature in size.

I have seen other people keep a single clown - possibly with another fish like damsel. But I would worry about keeping a single clownfish given there natural behaviour.

 

[CoralNewb]

For return pump, since you are in the UK, you can also check out TMC's line of centrifugal pumps. Might find a more suitable size for your application. The Jecod should be fine, as long as you double-check the dimensions. One thing to note with the Jecod/Jebao/Chinese discount brand pumps is that they have a minimum setting that stops at 30%-40% of total effective power so lower end flow might still be too high for your tank. I learned this the hard way with a 1600GPH Cross flow pump....A sicce syncra nano is also not a bad choice, and those things are like the Kalashkinovs of nano pumps. I had one which dried out, caked with calcium build up and ran dry accidentally for 24 hours. Next day, put it in a bucket of water to mix salt, and it restarted without hitch. You can also use the stock fluval pump as a mini wavemaker :) At least just to initially experiement.

As for stocking, I think Oscellaris for clownfish is really the way to go. Wether you get one or a pair is up to you, I think we tend to humanize fishes too much, meaning, they probably would not care if they didn't have a bonded mate. Also, they tend to be less territorial without a mate. I would caution against a damselfish...they are aggressive and in a fluval 13.5, I would house the damsel as a singular fish denizen. You can get lucky with damsels, but with 13.5 Gallons, and with damsels being exceptionally strong swimmers (They are tuna shaped vs Clowns which sort of waddle), they can really cause a lot of stress for any other fish you add.

I would not worry about Bioload, first of all, with 2 clown fish, you are already basically at max in terms of stocking in the 13.5. I really would not add more fish. Second, in such a new tank, high bioload actually works against you. You are just fueling every simple unicellular organism that can consume simple molecules, and because your system has not worked out a balance, this means algaes and cyanos and diatoms are now free to reign supreme, unchecked in a buffet of nutrients. As the tank matures, I also don't think you need to worry about bioload, if you need more nutrients, just add coral food or dose ammonium/phosphate, or feed your clown fish more. Having too many fish not only stresses them out, it will cause way more issues in terms of nutrient control.

I also don't think you have to worry about it in terms of maintaining your bacterial colonies. Bacteria will always be there, and they will balance themselves out as the nutrients they use increase or decrease. I really think it's not useful to think of conserving bacterial populations as say a culture of fruit flies, their lifecycles and the environmental world they live in operates on totally different timescales with very different biological considerations than macro organisms. That's my belief anyway.

The TL;DR: Caution on damselfish, I would avoid them because of agression. Oscellaris instead of Percula, 2 clown fish would be max stocking in a 13.5Gallon. And don't worry about having enough bioload, you have enough.

 

[FlameangelLover]

You can add beneficial bacteria if you want (more can never hurt) but i definitely think your fine to add small amounts of fish now and just monitor parameters closely for the first month or so and keep up with water changes

 

[DietDr.Kelp]

Thanks I am so grateful for the advice. I am definitely not going to rush things. I just thought the introduction of some beneficial microbes and microfauna - especially pods may help tanks development during early stages. What do you guys think?

It wouldn't hurt to add more pods, but will also be unecessary if you're starting with live rock. The rocks should have pods already colonizing them—even if there is die-off, some pods should survive and repopulate.

 

[higher99]

Hi! Just to add on, with live rocks honestly you should just do light concentrated ammonia. You should also get bottled bacteria to complement. IME my tank had an ammonia spike for a day or two but tanked down. Then my NO2 & NO3 Spiked for 2-3 days and my tank was fully cycled. Added a pair of clowns a week later.

 

[rayadog]

My vote would be bottle bac if you want it, mostly for initially colonizing your filter media but it’ll get replaced my the longer living bacteria from the rock ideally.

It’s nice to wait for a complete cycle to add anything. But I’ve started cycles with a fish a couple times.

Side note, I’ve read bonded pairs can reestablish dominant competition when introduced to a new area. I don’t think it’s very likely but just setting an expectation. And definitely don’t try to add an anemone anytime soon.

 

[TOM-779]

For return pump, since you are in the UK, you can also check out TMC's line of centrifugal pumps. Might find a more suitable size for your application. The Jecod should be fine, as long as you double-check the dimensions. One thing to note with the Jecod/Jebao/Chinese discount brand pumps is that they have a minimum setting that stops at 30%-40% of total effective power so lower end flow might still be too high for your tank. I learned this the hard way with a 1600GPH Cross flow pump....A sicce syncra nano is also not a bad choice, and those things are like the Kalashkinovs of nano pumps. I had one which dried out, caked with calcium build up and ran dry accidentally for 24 hours. Next day, put it in a bucket of water to mix salt, and it restarted without hitch. You can also use the stock fluval pump as a mini wavemaker :) At least just to initially experiement.

As for stocking, I think Oscellaris for clownfish is really the way to go. Wether you get one or a pair is up to you, I think we tend to humanize fishes too much, meaning, they probably would not care if they didn't have a bonded mate. Also, they tend to be less territorial without a mate. I would caution against a damselfish...they are aggressive and in a fluval 13.5, I would house the damsel as a singular fish denizen. You can get lucky with damsels, but with 13.5 Gallons, and with damsels being exceptionally strong swimmers (They are tuna shaped vs Clowns which sort of waddle), they can really cause a lot of stress for any other fish you add.

I would not worry about Bioload, first of all, with 2 clown fish, you are already basically at max in terms of stocking in the 13.5. I really would not add more fish. Second, in such a new tank, high bioload actually works against you. You are just fueling every simple unicellular organism that can consume simple molecules, and because your system has not worked out a balance, this means algaes and cyanos and diatoms are now free to reign supreme, unchecked in a buffet of nutrients. As the tank matures, I also don't think you need to worry about bioload, if you need more nutrients, just add coral food or dose ammonium/phosphate, or feed your clown fish more. Having too many fish not only stresses them out, it will cause way more issues in terms of nutrient control.

I also don't think you have to worry about it in terms of maintaining your bacterial colonies. Bacteria will always be there, and they will balance themselves out as the nutrients they use increase or decrease. I really think it's not useful to think of conserving bacterial populations as say a culture of fruit flies, their lifecycles and the environmental world they live in operates on totally different timescales with very different biological considerations than macro organisms. That's my belief anyway.

The TL;DR: Caution on damselfish, I would avoid them because of agression. Oscellaris instead of Percula, 2 clown fish would be max stocking in a 13.5Gallon. And don't worry about having enough bioload, you have enough.

Thanks CoralNewb.​

I have just looked up the TMC pumps. The TmC reef pump 500 compact has same output (500l/h) as stock pump - which leaves next size in range being TMC reef pump compact 1500 - which will be too much flow. However, given that I may use just single media basket in chamber 1 (media not decided yet) this would leave 2 (middle chamber free for the heater-so could be option for larger pump.

I agree with you regarding ocellaris clown fish - but undecided on single or pair.